Bedrock Damage investigation pt 3: Cubecraft "testing" and enchanted Armor

[adrian525pl]

In my last thread, this one I had come to the conclusion that damage mechanics in the whole game are broken. Another thing I discovered is that cubecraft may be using an older damage model, one where weapons, instead of dealing 1 (fist damage) + x (weapons damage, for example 6 for iron swords), they deal "just" the weapons damage (like they do on java edition).

So, I downloaded a health bar indicator from the internet, because it appears the one provided by the server is broken and sometimes it appears, and sometimes it doesn't appear, and the server itself does allow players to use external damage and health indicators (source).

This won't be part of a detailed testing session, I just want to see if my suspicions about using an older damage model are correct.

What will be part of a detailed testing session though, will be checking how weapons interact with prot 1 and prot 2 iron and diamond armors.


Once again: the conclusion, if you don't feel like reading into it that much, is at the end of this.


Lets start with cubecraft.

So, after a few games of eggwars and cyberbullying a bunch of people who had no armor, I had concluded:
It is the old system, but with a major plot twist.

You see: while wooden, sword, iron and diamond sword deal the damage value they say they do, without that extra +1 fist damage, one weapon uses that extra one fist damage. And its the trident.

The netherite sword deals 8 damage, a trident deals 9.

This means that, while in vanilla minecraft tridents and netherite swords are identical, on cubecraft netherite swords are a f***ing scam because tridents are better.

Oh yeah, and cubecraft actually using the old system for all but one weapon means that, to see what damage your weapons are gonna be dealing, in vanilla you gotta go for the weapon that deals 1 damage point less. What do I mean by that? Vanillas stone sword is cubecraft iron sword, for example. Or vanillas iron is cubes diamond, and so on. The only weapon that stays the same is the trident. Oh yeah, and there is no vanilla equivalent of a cubecraft wooden sword.

This also makes some of the conclusions made in the previous thread completely useless, because each weapons damage values are completely different. Now some of them are still relevant, for example the one about leather being useless. However the one about iron, diamond and netherite not being much different couldn't have been more wrong now.


And because this may sound like I made it up, considering that in the first thread I didn't even know that there was a "new" system in place on vanilla, here are some videos as evidence:

And a disclaimer that health/damage indicators are allowed by the server rules, and technically already a feature on the server (one that hardly works, but still), so I am not breaking any rules here.

Iron:

Diamond and Netherite:

Trident:

And now to the testing:
Because of the fact that cubecraft uses the older damage model for all weapons except the trident I have decided to test Stone, Iron, Diamond Swords and the trident on Iron armor with prot 1 and prot 2 as well as diamond armor with the same enchantments.

Vanillas stone being equivalent to cubecrafts iron sword, Vanillas iron to cubes diamond, and so on, you get how this works. Trident here is obviously just the trident. I am not sure how correct and applicable this may be to cubecraft considering that because of the old damage values, it may also use a different form of damage calculation. I think that is unlikely though, as that one changes, on top of the damage values, almost completely erases anything to do with the vanilla pvp system from cubecrafts. Now I am aware cube has a unique pvp system, but I don't think they'd overwrite vanilla minecrafts damage calculations. Though if anyone knows anything about it, feel free to inform me.


Another bit of extra information is how protection works. You see: protection doesn't add extra damage resistance to the already existing one provided by the armor (the only exception being prot 4, which does add 16%, equivalent to 4 points of armor). Instead it reduces the damage left AFTER the damage reduction provided by armor has been calculated. Each level of prot on each piece of armor adds 4% to this second damage reduction. Meaning that full prot 1 Iron for example has the default 60% iron armor damage reduction, then a 16% reduction of the damage that is left. Prot 2 Iron provides a 32% reduction to the damage left after the 60%, and so on.


The Results of the tests are gonna be formated the following way:
[Weapon type] on [prot level] [armor type] (damage reduction provided by the armor + extra damage reduction from prot)

the first column is simply the hit number, the second one is the damage that should be dealt on vanilla according to math, the third is the damage that should be dealt on the "old"/cubecrafts system, the fourth one is the actual number. Killing hits are gonna be visibly marked and have lower damage values, depending on how much hp is left until the kill.

The damage numbers shown here are displayed in HEARTS, and not in damage points. The only time damage points are going to be mentioned is for the "how much it should be" calculation in the first hit for each test.

The end of each test will also say how many hits the kill should have taken, according to the "how it should be" values.

The "how it should be values" are calculated NOT according to the system which states that each heart of damage dealt reduces the effectiveness of the armor by one point, as this system, according to my research, is only used on Java edition on 1.9+, 1.8.9 and older versions and bedrock edition use a simplified system, where 80% damage reduction means 80% damage reduction

The stats here apply only to normal hits for now, crits deserve a bit of a separate thread

Lets begin:



Stone on Prot 1 Iron (60% + 16%):

1. 1 (2.016 damage), 0.5-1 (1.68 damage), 1
2. 1, 0.5-1, 1.5
3. 1, 0.5-1, 1
4. 1, 0.5-1, 1.5
5. 1, 0.5-1, 1.5
6. 1, 0.5-1, 1
7. 1, 0.5-1, 1.5
8. 1, 0.5-1, 1 (kill)


should be 7-10 hits on vanilla, 10 hits on old/cube.


Stone on Prot 2 Iron (60% + 32%)

1. 0.5-1 (1.536 damage), 0.5-1 (1.36 damage), 1
2. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
3. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
4. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
5. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
6. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
7. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
8. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
9. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1.5
10. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 0.5 (kill)

should be 10-20 hits



Stone on prot 1 Diamond (80% + 16%)

1. 0.5 (1.008 damage), 0-0.5 (0.84 damage), 0.5
2. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
3. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
4. 0.5, 0-0.5, 1
5. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
6. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
7. 0.5, 0-0.5, 1
8. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
9. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
10. 0.5, 0-0.5, 1
11. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
12. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
13. 0.5, 0-0.5, 1
14. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
15. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
16. 0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5 (kill)

should be 20 hits on vanilla, 20 or more on old/cube

Stone on prot 2 Diamond (80% + 32%)

1. 0-0.5 (0.768 damage), 0-0.5 (0.68 damage), 0.5
2. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
3. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
4. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
5. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
6. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
7. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
8. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
9. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
10. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
11. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
12. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
13. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
14. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
15. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
16. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
17. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 1
18. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5
19. 0-0.5, 0-0.5, 0.5

should be 20 or more hits.







Iron on Prot 1 Iron (60% + 16%)

1. 1-1.5 (2.352 damage), 1 (2.016 damage), 1.5
2. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
3. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
4. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
5. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
6. 1-1.5, 1, 2
7. 1-1.5, 1, 0.5 (kill)

should be 7-10 hits on vanilla, 10 hits on old/cube.



Iron on prot 2 Iron (60% +32%)

1. 0.5-1 (1.904 damage), 0.5-1 (1.632 damage), 1
2. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1.5
3. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
4. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1.5
5. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
6. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1.5
7. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
8. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1.5 (kill)

should be 10-20 hits.


Iron on prot 1 diamond (80% + 16%)

1. 0.5-1 (1.176 damage), 0.5 (1.008 damage), 0.5
2. 0.5-1, 0.5, 1
3. 0.5-1, 0.5, 0.5
4. 0.5-1, 0.5, 1
5. 0.5-1, 0.5, 0.5
6. 0.5-1, 0.5, 1
7. 0.5-1, 0.5, 1
8. 0.5-1, 0.5, 0.5
9. 0.5-1, 0.5, 1
10. 0.5-1, 0.5, 0.5
11. 0.5-1, 0.5, 1
12. 0.5-1, 0.5, 1
13. 0.5-1, 0.5, 0.5 (kill)

should be 10-20 hits on vanilla, 20 on old/cube




Iron on prot 2 diamond (80% + 32%)

1. 0.5 (0.952 damage), 0.5 (0.816 damage), 0.5
2. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
3. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
4. 0.5, 0.5, 1
5. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
6. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
7. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
8. 0.5, 0.5, 1
9. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
10. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
11. 0.5, 0.5, 1
12. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
13. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
14. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
15. 0.5, 0.5, 1
16. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5 (kill)

should be 20 hits.






Diamond on Iron prot 1 (60% + 16%):

1. 1-1.5 (2.688 damage), 1-1.5 (2.352 damage), 1.5
2. 1-1.5, 1-1.5, 2
3. 1-1.5, 1-1.5, 2
4. 1-1.5, 1-1.5, 2
5. 1-1.5, 1-1.5, 1.5
6. 1-1.5, 1-1.5, 1 (kill)

should be 7-10 hits.


Diamond on Iron prot 2 (60% + 32%):

1. 1-1.5 (2.176 damage), 1 (1.904 damage), 1.5
2. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
3. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
4. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
5. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
6. 1-1.5, 1, 1.5
7. 1-1.5, 1, 1 (kill)

should be 7-10 hits on vanilla, 10 hits on old/cube.



Diamond on Diamond prot 1 (80%+16%)

1. 0.5-1 (1.344 damage), 0.5-1 (1.176 damage), 0.5
2. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
3. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
4. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
5. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
6. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
7. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
8. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
9. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 0.5
10. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1
11. 0.5-1, 0.5-1, 1 (kill)

should be 10-20 hits.




Diamond on Diamond prot 2 (80% + 32%)

1. 0.5 (1.088 damage), 0.5 (0.952 damage), 0.5
2. 0.5, 0.5, 1
3. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
4. 0.5, 0.5, 1
5. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
6. 0.5, 0.5, 1
7. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
8. 0.5, 0.5, 1
9. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
10. 0.5, 0.5, 1
11. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
12. 0.5, 0.5, 1
13. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5
14. 0.5, 0.5, 0.5 (kill)

should be 20 hits.







Trident on Prot 1 Iron (60% + 16%):

Disclaimer: Since this is the Trident weapon where the damage from vanilla is the same as on cube I will simply leave out the "old" damage as for this one weapon it is completely irrelevant to test and any conclusion that might be drawn from it.

Meaning that the third column now shows the actual damage dealt, and there will be no fourth.

1. 1.5 (3.024 damage), 2
2. 1.5, 2
3. 1.5, 2.5
4. 1.5, 2
5. 1.5, 1.5 (kill)

should be 7 hits.



Trident on prot 2 Iron (60% + 32%)

1. 1-1.5 (2.448 damage), 1.5
2. 1-1.5, 2
3. 1-1.5, 1.5
4. 1-1.5, 2
5. 1-1.5, 1.5
6. 1-1.5, 1.5 (kill)

Trident on prot 1 diamond (80% + 16%)

1. 0.5-1 (1.512 damage), 1
2. 0.5-1, 1
3. 0.5-1, 1
4. 0.5-1, 1
5. 0.5-1, 1
6. 0.5-1, 1.5
7. 0.5-1, 1
8. 0.5-1, 1
9. 0.5-1, 1
10. 0.5-1, 0.5 (kill)

should be 10-20 hits.




Trident on prot 2 diamond (80% + 32%)

1. 0.5-1 (1.224 damage), 0.5
2. 0.5-1, 1
3. 0.5-1, 1
4. 0.5-1, 1
5. 0.5-1, 0.5
6. 0.5-1, 1
7. 0.5-1, 1
8. 0.5-1, 1
9. 0.5-1, 0.5
10. 0.5-1, 1
11. 0.5-1, 1
12. 0.5-1, 0.5 (kill)

should be 10-20 hits.





Conclusion:




1. On cubecraft, tridents deal more melee damage than netherite swords, rendering them superior.

2. There is hardly any difference between prot 1 and prot 2 iron on any of the weapons, with the stronger weapons (diamond and trident on vanilla, netherite and trident on cubecraft) additionally completely obliterating both.
2b. if you are playing eggwars overpowered, then you can easily wait with upgrading to prot 2 until you get diamond as only then it makes any significant difference.

3. Cubecrafts iron swords (vanillas stone) are signficantly weaker than diamond, netherite or tridents (and they are just weak in general), so if you can upgrade from an iron sword to either of these three, do so as fast as possible.


4. Despite the damage difference, netherite and tridents are still almost equivalent in strength against stronger armor (diamond and trident on vanilla).


5. Despite only recently being updated, cubecraft uses an older damage model, where all weapons (but the trident) deal only the damage that you can see in the inventory screen, and not an additional one damage for what would normally be your fist.


6. When compared to unenchanted armor, upgrading to prot always is worth it if you don't have any protection enchants on your armor.

7. Seeing the damage of the vanilla stone sword already being this bad, buying a stone sword on cubecraft eggwars to fight anyone (except players with absolutely zero armor) is a waste of 18 Iron.


8. Armor with prot generally speaking appears to be stronger than armor without it, to a point where, if compared with the previous thread, iron armor with prot 1 is as good as unenchanted diamond armor for as long as your opponent uses a stone or iron sword (ON CUBECRAFT). And prot 2 Iron, as long as your opponent doesn't have netherite or a trident, is better than unenchanted diamond.

In other words: if your opponents have weak weapons (diamond or worse), and you already got Iron with prot 2 on it, you have no reason to upgrade to diamond until you spot someone with a netherite sword.

 

[adrian525pl]

I may accidentally have posted this earlier than I wanted to, and since there is no delete button, I will just edit in the missing part once I have it

Okay, now the post is fully ready, except for maybe a few minor mistakes.

a little bit of an update:
I did report the bug on the minecraft bug tracking website, but they marked it as a duplicate and as "being resolved" because it turns out someone already reported it in february 2023 and its been present since, at least, version 1.19.51

 

[EdibleNummies]

How long have you spent testing

 

[adrian525pl]

How long have you spent testing

I have no idea

Probably somewhere between an hour or two

Update: They marked the bug as "resolved" and "cannot reproduce" as a bug tracker mod was too incompetent to replicate it ingame...


Oh yeah, and when linking me the minecraft wiki for an explanation, the guy linked me the java edition page for armor, not the bedrock/1.8 one, so...

 

[Roxrock]

Update: They marked the bug as "resolved" and "cannot reproduce" as a bug tracker mod was too incompetent to replicate it ingame...


Oh yeah, and when linking me the minecraft wiki for an explanation, the guy linked me the java edition page for armor, not the bedrock/1.8 one, so...

I don’t really think microsoft or mojang really care about what players think or want. No matter what, they won’t run out of money unless they intentionally made their game unplayable. I wouldn’t be surprised if some sort of AI algorithm responds to these bug reports instead of actual human beings. This explains why bedrock especially has some really bad bugs, like the one frequently used against servers that don’t have great anti cheats (I’m talking about the bug that was used against the mob vote server, that they still haven’t patched even after that happened) I’m at least glad that cubecraft’s QA team has been great when handling my reports, even when a lot of them lack evidence. I guess our best bet is to hope that cubecraft will have to find a way to patch this problem themselves.

 

[adrian525pl]

I don’t really think microsoft or mojang really care about what players think or want. No matter what, they won’t run out of money unless they intentionally made their game unplayable. I wouldn’t be surprised if some sort of AI algorithm responds to these bug reports instead of actual human beings. This explains why bedrock especially has some really bad bugs, like the one frequently used against servers that don’t have great anti cheats (I’m talking about the bug that was used against the mob vote server, that they still haven’t patched even after that happened) I’m at least glad that cubecraft’s QA team has been great when handling my reports, even when a lot of them lack evidence. I guess our best bet is to hope that cubecraft will have to find a way to patch this problem themselves.

The funniest part about the bug trackers mods response is: the very article he sent me CLEARLY SAYS that bedrock edition uses a different system. And according to the explanation he provided the damage is still broken, just in a different way than I said.

The guy not only contradicted with his own words, but provided a source that contradicts him completely.

Update: I decided to make yet another report on the same bug on the bug tracker, but this time I linked all the sources necessary to prove that a bug is in place, and added a video in comparing the damage dealt using an iron sword to both a zombie with iron armor and a player with iron armor, since they are different even though they shouldn't be.

Like: regardless which damage is broken, the players OR the zombies, AT LEAST ONE is broken as they should not be different under those circumstances. In other words: even if the bug tracker mod was somehow correct the first time around, a bug is still in place.

 

[adrian525pl]

Final Update, because I've had enough with the minecraft bug tracker and its staff.

So basically, the new report got marked as resolved, and the mod (different one than last time) said that "the minecraft wiki is an official source of the games behavior" which, while true (its community run), doesn't explain why the hell another mod proceeded to refer me to it as if it was an official source.

Oh yeah, and they wanted me to list steps to reproduce the bug despite me having attached two videos showing it. I still did it.

At this point it feels as if those people were trying their hardest not to do anything about a potentially broken mechanic, one of them refusing to acknowledge a bug is in place, the other ignoring the problem because I did not list, step by step, how to hit someone in minecraft with a sword.

 

[adrian525pl]

Actual final update, because the mod from the initial report has responded, and while his response still barely makes sense, I am not willing to try and claim there is a bug in place if they keep saying no.

First, he apologized for the confusion with the sources he linked, stating that he forgot to double check them because he isn't used to that.

He also said that the wiki, both sources of the wiki in fact, appear to be outdated on top of not being an official source, so technically speaking we have no idea as to how exactly damage is supposed to be calculated.

He also said that armor toughness (one of the stats used for damage calculation on java) is actually in the game, but someone just set it to zero for all armors except netherite and diamond.

This also means that, due to a higher toughness value, netherite armor has better damage protection than diamond armor (netherite has 3 toughness, diamond has 2, all other have zero). Oh yeah, and unlike java, armor toughness is an invisible value.

He then said that, if a hit deals 2.99999 hearts of damage, then it will appear as 1 heart of damage instead of 1.5 hearts because minecraft doesn't know math. Basically: the displayed health is supposed to round up to the nearest half heart, except no because it supposed to show up in a way that makes 17.000001 health look like 9 hearts of health instead of the 8.5 that would be closer to reality. Not sure how that makes sense mathematically, as NEAREST half heart would mean it would display as 1.5 hearts, but like I said: I am not going to question it. I mean, don't get me wrong, I get how gameplay-wise that makes sense (somewhat), but mathematically it sounds wrong.

Oh yeah, and the way it works is also that, a follow up hit on those 17.000001 health would make the next value, 14.000002 be displayed as 7.5 hearts, because NOW it realises that the player has taken (almost full) 3 hearts of damage, so it displays it as 2.5. Basically: the moment the health value is even 0.000000000001 above a "full" number (without decimals), is the moment that the health bar doesn't work "correctly".


And this raises a crap ton of question as to how healing potions, regeneration and absorption work and how they influence the health value displayed.

Because, based on all that was said, it means that while there may not be any absorption hearts displayed, the health we actually have with the absorption effect could theoretically be above 20 health even if that extra half heart isn't displayed. Or when it is, it could mean we are actually at like 20.00001 health, making that half heart of absorption meaningless.

As for healing: Healing always restores an exact amount of FULL HEARTS. Instant healing 1 always restores 2 hearts. So, if I am at 14.00002 health, and 7.5 health, it should put me at 9.5 and not 9 despite the health value being 18.000002. Or does it just round it up all the way to 19 without telling anyone?

And how does regen work? Does it also go for hearts, or specific health values that may or may not be displayed correctly on the HP bar? What I am asking here is basically: Could 10 visible hearts actually mean 19.76 health, or just 20?

Oh, and having only 1.1 health (so slightly above 0.5 hearts) is actually displayed as a full heart, so... good luck figuring that one out.

In my opinion, the health value should simply always align with whichever is the closest one to reality. So, for example, 9.66 health would be displayed as 5 hearts. I am aware this doesn't make 100% sense either, but I'd rather be close to reality and a little confused than have 1.1 health and be lied to that I am at a full heart even though I could actually get killed by as much as a punch with a fist.


He also claims that mobs have some kind of natural invisible armor on top of any armor they might wear, which makes mobs with armor take more hits to kill than players. And that despite the fact that mobs without armor take the exact same amount of hits...


Additionally, the math he did for iron on iron claims that 3.78 damage is the actual damage value, not 2.8. I can't even calculate it myself now due to a lack of official and up-to-date online sources, so I will just take his word for it.


Some of those things do make sense, like armor toughness and (becuase we can't double check it) the higher damage values because each damage point dealt reduces the protection armor gives you by half a point. And some things do not make sense, like that regen, healing and absorption and the whole HP bar thing.

I am not really in the mood for testing all of that especially seeing that it leads to nothing. This raises a whole new question though, is cubecrafts damage calculated the same or differently? After all, damage on cubecraft still aligns with "old" values (except for the trident), so maybe it uses the old system as well?


Tl;dr

Like I said in the previous update: I give up, I am done, I only added this update becuase for a change, the mod seems to have actually put effort into his response, even if parts of it are nonsensical or questionable, and I don't want to leave everyone thinking that damage is super broken.


Now don't get me wrong, it is broken, especially in relation to the HP bar, BUT not as badly as I claimed to be initially, where each number of damage dealt is so far off that it might as well be in an alternate universe, instead its broken more in the way that the HP Bar is a liar and refuses to tell you your actual health sometimes and in the way that basically: noone has any actual idea how minecrafts damage is calculated other than the devs themselves, we can only make educated guesses on the minecraft wiki (which, btw, is notorious for providing information that is outdated or sometimes outright wrong) and its outdated articles.

 

[Cube Nerd]

this is the most effort I have ever seen for a post