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Monozo

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Eggwars is a fun gamemode in which playing aggressive rewards you and is generally just fun to do since so long you have your egg, you don't have to worry about dying.

(If you can't be asked to read the whole post I'll leave a TLDR at the bottom of the post, though I would recommend reading the entire post for a better understanding.)

(I'm using angle brackets (this here: >) just to emphasize how important the passage could be considered for you as a reader. It's not that important tbh.)

Though sadly this is not always the case when you play Eggwars. Since you obviously don't always deal with the same exact circumstances every time and can't always go and kill all the other teams before some of them have gathered enough resources such as diamonds which won't be a problem assuming you have been gathering resources as well.

But in the late game is where things start to get difficult to still maintain rushing teams.

That's normal of course considering everybody gets better armor and swords but that's not where the problem lies.
Just that alone won't slow the game down.

Where things start to get slow is when bows are involved, specifically Punch Bows. Bows are good but Punch Bows are better because knockback in general is very good to have
since you'll be fighting on islands in the sky and of course in fights as well as they allow you to gain distance to run away or pressure the person you're fighting without touching them.
Knocking people off saves a lot of hassles as well which we all know but I digress.

>Punch bows are too good in Eggwars in my opinion because there're no proper counters against it. You can just stay on your island and wait for people to come to you, because why be aggressive if you can just stand in one place and shoot high knockback arrows that potentially can kill people very easily without having going through the effort of actually winning the interaction you would've had if you didn't have a bow to shoot people off bridges that are typically one block wide or get people to fall into gaps or just land enough shots to push them off the island.

You may say: "Oh well go buy a shield then, they are cheaper than bows too. Easy right?"

>Lol no.
The shields Cubecraft use are from 1.9. Aka they don't prevent knockback and only reduce damage. They can still get disabled by axes though.
Reference: https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/shields-dont-block.192548
Though the servers says 1.12+, the shields still function like they are from 1.9 (Starting from 1.11 is when shields started blocking 100% of the melee damage and knockback.)

>1.9 Shields can block arrows but it isn't consistent (or shield blocking doesn't cover you 100%). I can't speak for everyone, but I've had plenty moments in duels, eggwars and skywars
I straight up was facing the person while blocking and the arrows still hit me either way, sometimes I try to aim a bit higher or lower to see if there's a difference but I can't tell to be honest, correct me if you can.
I have no idea if it was because I was using the shield wrong or people are just capable shooting your toes and the tip of your head that the shield doesn't cover, which if possible would make shields not very useful.
One shot on bridges or on edges of islands is enough to knock you off so shields aren't a reliable option against campers using punch bows if it doesn't show to be consistent at blocking arrows and if multiple players are camping with punch bows one can just stand on the far right and one the far left to shoot at you from angles you aren't blocking at that moment.

Because of mentioned above, you can control the pace of the game by just having a punch bow so you don't necessarily need good armor or weapons if you can just maintain a distance and take your chances at knocking them off from afar.
Sure, the attackers can also buy a punch bow and spam you back but it doesn't allow them to get closer reliably since they aren't invincible to getting shot themselves which is bad obviously if they are the ones trying to approach the camper because now you'll just trade shots unable to move anywhere.

Now the game turns into a long one sided match of pain and boredom, because there's no incentive for the camper to do anything but to stand there and wait for you knowing you can't do anything against them, while you have to come to them risking to die very easily.
Essentially motivating camping and punishing you for trying to play aggressive/rushing.

So, that would only leave one option left:
Ender Pearls

"Yeah man, just go get ender pearls, easy enough. They only cost 6 4 d i a m o n d s. "

>>Ender Pearls can counter camping very easily because you teleport to get somewhere instead having to walk/run the distance and most importantly don't have to cross thin spaghetti bridges you can easily be shot off of effectively avoiding the risk of dying trying to get to a sky island that typically has no safe way to get to. Everybody knows that.

>>Why are Ender Pearls so extremely expensive compared to Punch Bows. 64 diamonds vs 25 diamonds in both Normal and Overpowered mode. Why? I find it even weirder how in Overpowered Mode Ender Pearls still remain 64 diamonds when everything else gets much cheaper, except for the aforementioned punch bow. I can understand why that bow didn't get cheaper but not the ender pearls cause in Overpowered everything becomes easier to get except for transportation so even if your armor and sword are enchanted or you can get more food, more blocks and break eggs easier, it won't matter if you can't even get near people that can just snipe you off your bridge with punch bows for free.

>>By the time a person gets an ender pearl, the camper could get 2 diamond armor parts or a sharpness 5 diamond sword or in the worst case, they get an ender pearl themselves.
And if they do manage to get an ender pearl as well they can just pearl away as soon you've used yours to get to them.
Making all the time you've spent trying to get a single pearl in the first place completely wasted.
In either of those 3 situations you'd be at a disadvantage of trying to get a pearl: Either they become bulkier, deadlier or campier.
They are getting stronger while you are spending your time just trying to get to them.

>>To be fair, in normal mode they can't get bulkier or deadlier (because iron armor is the best you can get as well as a regular diamond sword)
but the campy scenario still remains so the chances of them spending it on the pearl could be even higher, though they could also just buy 2 God Apples instead making them bulkier but temporarily technically, it's still a huge advantage.

>>>So I'd like to suggest a solution against this problem which you probably have realized by now:<<<

please, Please, PLEASE, make Ender Pearls cheaper. They can solve the solution of campers by a lot.

Please make Ender Pearls worth 25 Diamonds or close to it so there's a direct counter to campers that is reliable and doesn't take 5 years to get.
I suggest 25 as the cost personally so you can choose between an equal run or gun situation:

You can choose to be defensive and go for the punch bow but you ALSO have the option to be aggressive without a big paywall stopping you from doing so, balancing both playstyles.
But also Ender Pearls actually become actually used to begin with, I never see them used at all, not even late game. Ender Pearls can give gameplay more depth as it isn't immediately over the moment you're knocked off, if you're fast enough and throw a pearl before you're off the map you can still save yourself and clutch. Or your team is dead and only you survived and it's you up against a whole other team, at least you can escape and buy yourself some more time to get better items.
Sadly by the prize it's at now that can't even be considered an option simply because it takes way too long lol.

I wouldn't want to suggest getting rid of Punch Bows as a whole as they still have their use and bows in general aren't even bad to begin with.
I'm simply asking for a counter to that so the game doesn't last so long.

>>>Alright so you may say it's a bad idea to make it cheaper for potential points like these:

1: If Ender Pearls become cheaper that means the camper can get them easier as well and use them to run away-

Counter argument: That's true, but there's a limit on how many times you can ender pearl away, you lose health using them and Eggwars has no abilities that allows you to negate Ender pearl damage so there definitely will be moments you need to stop and eat leaving yourself open to be attacked.
The situation of chasing after a person running away from you seems way more appealing and action packed than being forced to just freaking stand there helplessly dealing with a person spamming with their punch bow from their island. You can at least apply strategies while chasing someone like cutting them off or forcing/baiting them to use their pearls
(Such as managing to hit them off or bow them off) until they run out of pearls or diamonds to buy new ones with. 25 Diamonds is still a lot and isn't something you'll just get with a finger snap.

2: Can't people just go and collect 25 diamonds and then just easily ender pearl cheese to your egg and break it for free?

Counter argument: Yes and no. By the time someone gets 25 diamonds it will usually be spend on gear first before they go with other utilities and again it still takes time to get that many to begin with. But say you choose to not get gear and just get a pearl instead. By that time if a team is smart they will have their egg covered in obsidian or have better gear by then. So sure you can go get diamond pick as well which isn't that hard to get and go rush their egg with your pearl but as soon as they see you they will have better gear than you and kill you before you break the obsidian defense, if they notice that is.
It may not happen as quickly as you'd think as most go for diamond swords and iron armor first which by then you need to have gathered 32 diamonds in total and then 25 for the ender pearl. But you also got to keep in mind you're not the only person getting diamonds so it's not going to be a smooth or quick process
in this situation alone, getting 57 diamonds in total will take time lol.

It may need to be tested to be honest to see if you can even cheese it that easily, sounds easy in theory but I don't think it is practically.
I can imagine it could be easier to do in normal mode since 5 obsidian blocks takes a while to get (50 Gold) compared to OP Mode (15 Gold) but then again that if is you choose not to get iron armor or a diamond sword, only a pearl, a pickaxe and just leather armor against up to 2-4 typically in an eggwars game unless you go solo, probably there it would be easier to do that if you can get the resources before anyone else that is but that probably isn't that easy.

TLDR:
Please make Ender Pearls cheaper preferably the same prize as Punch Bows (25 Diamonds) so there's a way to counter people camping and bow spamming from their island for the whole game without you unable to do anything about it. Punch Bows being much cheaper than ender pearls makes camping easy to do.

I tagged Bedrock in here as well since I read on this post: https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/eggwars-guide-on-cubecraft-java-bedrock.222904/#post-1078282
that ender pearls and punch bows are the same prize as java there too so it could be a solution for both Bedrock and Java but since that post was from 2019, the prizes may have changed, but they could still be accurate because the prizes on the java version remained the same, but I don't know about Bedrock because I don't play Bedrock Edition.

Please feel free to correct me if there're any points I made that didn't make sense lol.
 

Marieke2001

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This thread made me realize that I can appreciate a well thought out, fact based thread so so much. We don’t often get to see threads that are going very in depth on causes and solutions and me likely.
 

Fesa

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I started this thread with fear in my heart, as a thread about punch bows is almost guaranteed to go wrong. When I read the last of words written down, I tried to summon the devil and burn the thread.
While your points appear to make sense, you misuse facts and leave out bits. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but it hurts.

You begin to claim that fighting against a bow is the hardest thing in the universe and depict them as some form of weapon created at the dawn of time, unbeatable and a source of absolute dominance to they that posses the weapon. Well, to start of, Eggwars is the only fair game on Cubecraft. Apart from a few design flaws, everyone starts with the same gear, resources and chances. If someone gets a bow before you, it is your fault. You let them farm enough diamonds.
Furthermore, you claim that they do not have a proper counter. I present you blocks, with a current cost of 1 iron for 3 blocks you can place them around you and all your kb is contains within this limited space. Someone has a bow? Build an anti kb bridge (eithor low on the already made bridge, or higher in the sky making getting hit even harder), most of the time the bow spammers will not be good at PVP nor know how to change armour and gap well. So once on their island, killing them won't be much of a problem. If they start spamming with their bow on the island, place blocks in front or behind you to block the arrow or kb respectively. Shields and pearl are not the only counter against bows, the entire premise of your thread is based on leaving out the iron based alternative. On top, there is not a single competent Eggwars player that will actually tell you to use a shield in the first place, way too risky. Two players and your shield will be made absolute. One bows the other hits, you can't stop both their kb at once.

You afterwards claim that pearls are so expensive that when trying to get one, the camper will have even more gear. Making you have to farm even more. Well you see this would be very true if both of you are sitting on one gen. If you are doing that, you deserve to lose to a camper. If someone camps, you can use the entire of mid which has 2, 3 or even 5 times more diamond gens. Taking into account that the camper might have to share this diamond gen with one or more teammate, you'll have plenty of lead in diamonds.

That's true, but there's a limit on how many times you can ender pearl away, you lose health using them and Eggwars has no abilities that allows you to negate Ender pearl damage so there definitely will be moments you need to stop and eat leaving yourself open to be attacked.
Yes, the moment would consist of one singular golden apple. If pearls would cost 25 diamonds, one could and will keep pearling away when they notice that they're not winning the fight. If you don't have the same amount or more pearls, you're stuck again. And farming again for a pearl (or placing blocks??).

Yes and no. By the time someone gets 25 diamonds it will usually be spend on gear first before they go with other utilities and again it still takes time to get that many to begin with.
No no no, just yes. If a pearl costs 25 diamonds, 50 diamonds and I have every egg. 50 diamonds is nothing, depending on the map. It's one full run back and forth on Tea Party for example. Also, you can't use "usually" in arguments when you change the price of a pearl to 25. Nothing is usual any more. Personally, I would pearl everywhere, 25 is a ridiculous low cost that will break the game.

in this situation alone, getting 57 diamonds in total will take time lol.
Depends on the map, in bigger maps I have this after going once to mid and running around a bit. On Tea Party, I mostly return with 62 diamonds to buy a 25 dia pick, bow and diamond sword. Again, 25 diamonds is nothing.


While I am fundamentally not against making pearls cheaper, I honestly don't see the need to. I have played a lot of Eggwars and if you play smart you are more than fine.

For more information about the design flaws I mentioned and why bows are not OP, https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/eggwars-the-good-the-bad-and-the-not-so-ugly.278582/ Free publicity!!!
 

Monozo

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I like Fesa's response, helps me get a better perspective.

Based on the link to your post you made below, it's clear to me you know a lot about Eggwars and I'll recognize that.

But I still have some problems with the arguments you've presented.
So let me state first why I made this thread and then tell you why I don't agree:

I made this thread because based on the things they are now in Eggwars, as for the way I see it there's no clear as water solution to camping.
Whether you're good or bad I've seen players struggle to deal with this, complain about it and stretch the length of games unnecessarily long and seen people lose just out of a lack of patience since they have no real and efficient way to get to punch bow users camping at their islands without walking on thin bridges.

Furthermore, you claim that they do not have a proper counter. I present you blocks, with a current cost of 1 iron for 3 blocks you can place them around you and all your kb is contains within this limited space. Someone has a bow? Build an anti kb bridge (eithor low on the already made bridge, or higher in the sky making getting hit even harder), most of the time the bow spammers will not be good at PVP nor know how to change armour and gap well. So once on their island, killing them won't be much of a problem. If they start spamming with their bow on the island, place blocks in front or behind you to block the arrow or kb respectively.

And before you ask about how I didn't mention BLOCKS as if I was trying to hide this fact as a "good" solution against bow spammers.

Why I didn't mention it, is because I don't consider it a solution. That's why I made this thread in the first place.
If just placing blocks in front of you, behind you, or create anti kb walls while getting shot at as if there isn't a chance you'll fall during the making of such a bridge was such an easy bread and butter solution to it. There wouldn't be a ton of threads already complaining about of punch bows in Eggwars or people complaining in Eggwars matches themselves about the exact same thing.

If blocks are such an easy peasy solution to campers using punch bows then I don't think people would complain about it as much as they do. I'm making a suggestion about making ender pearls cheaper because I haven't seen a good and consistent solution to getting to campers. In one case even while people were making an anti kb bridge I saw the campers use tnt cannons to destroy the opponent's bridge, extending the game duration even more.

If say you would build high to avoid getting shot, who says the camper couldn't do the exact same thing to maintain in the range of shooting you?
If they see you build high or spend time making a kb bridge couldn't they just use that time to bridge away while you're trying to get down? Or just build up to you, shoot you off and use that bridge you used to get to them to run off somewhere else?
If say you build up and build some anti kb walls and such, can't they still just build up to you and place tnt on a block to break that defense and shoot you again when exposed?

There are many possibilities for them to counter your approach/rush but barely any counters to them camping you out.

You begin to claim that fighting against a bow is the hardest thing in the universe and depict them as some form of weapon created at the dawn of time, unbeatable and a source of absolute dominance to they that posses the weapon.

Let me state this again, I think Punch Bows are too good as they are right now BECAUSE there are no good counters against this if people go to camp with it.

What I mean by this is that they AREN'T BROKEN lol,
and not a "weapon created at the dawn of time, UNBEATABLE and a source of ABSOLUTE DOMINANCE to they that posses the weapon".

People can obviously miss their shots but there also exist people who can aim, and if they land their shots they just get more and more opportunities to continue doing it whether it's from a distance or in an up close fight because a punch bow creates distance between you and them.
I've clutched games by just hitting enough bow shots in a row to knock them off against people with better gear than me.

I wouldn't want to suggest getting rid of Punch Bows as a whole as they still have their use and bows in general aren't even bad to begin with.
I'm simply asking for a counter to that so the game doesn't last so long.

It's why I didn't suggest getting rid of Punch Bows. I was hoping this would make it clear I don't see punch bows as broken lol.
I just wanted a solution so people can fight against it.
I don't think removing it would be a solution.
They definitely affect the speed of the game and player behavior if you would go and camp with it though.
But I don't consider them unbeatable nor unfair.

I'm saying this because there's no proper way to fight against it on their own if people camp with it.
Once you're knocked off it's over since the knockback it gives you from just Punch lvl 1 is enough for you to knock someone far enough off a platform or island to make block clutches not possible anymore. Unless you weren't that close to the edge to begin with as you got shot.
If say you would be able to keep a pearl to prevent situations like those where it's almost instantly game over when you fall, that could add another layer of depth to its gameplay.

most of the time the bow spammers will not be good at PVP nor know how to change armour and gap well. So once on their island, killing them won't be much of a problem.

You don't need to be good at PVP to outplay/outsmart somebody.
Though of course it's beneficial to be good at pvp generally.

Like I said the circumstances in Eggwars aren't always the same so you can't always just assume a player is this or that. Maybe it is a good player but is camping because he is on his own against another team for example or they have less members who are alive than the other teams.

You afterwards claim that pearls are so expensive that when trying to get one, the camper will have even more gear. Making you have to farm even more. Well you see this would be very true if both of you are sitting on one gen. If you are doing that, you deserve to lose to a camper. If someone camps, you can use the entire of mid which has 2, 3 or even 5 times more diamond gens. Taking into account that the camper might have to share this diamond gen with one or more teammate, you'll have plenty of lead in diamonds.
That's true, but there's a limit on how many times you can ender pearl away, you lose health using them and Eggwars has no abilities that allows you to negate Ender pearl damage so there definitely will be moments you need to stop and eat leaving yourself open to be attacked.
Yes, the moment would consist of one singular golden apple. If pearls would cost 25 diamonds, one could and will keep pearling away when they notice that they're not winning the fight. If you don't have the same amount or more pearls, you're stuck again. And farming again for a pearl (or placing blocks??).

Aight so here you say that if someone camps you, you will have the advantage in getting MORE resources since you control mid and they typically have more diamond gens than a team island would have. So that means the attackers will have more diamonds in the end than the camper will.

Okay, keep that in mind.

After I say that there's a limit to how many times you can pearl away and that there will be moments they need to stop and eat, you go to imply that moment will consist of one singular golden apple so I assume you mean the time you need to recover out constantly running away with pearls will be short or doesn't create enough time to catch up.

Aight fair point I can see it not taking that much time to recover after using a pearl.

"And if pearls are 25 diamonds one could and will keep pearling away if they notice they aren't winning the fight and IF you don't have the same amount or more pearls you're stuck again and farming for a pearl or placing blocks..."

So according to your logic, people who control mid will have more diamonds, than the camper. Yes?

So that means if Ender Pearls are 25 diamonds the camper could buy them as expected if they are cheaper.
BUT
The people who control mid can get them too but MORE of them and QUICKER than the camper due to there being more gens to collect diamonds from.

So in the end the camper will lose because they had less resources than the people who control mid?
As that is probably what people who are rushing would want?
Isn't that a good thing?
It forces campers to be on the move, inevitably lose by constantly running away and running out of resources?

If you the aggressor got 2-3 ender pearls and they the camper got 1-2 ender pearls, won't you catch up guaranteed? I don't think they will have time to both go run to diamond gens, collect 25 and then go buy a pearl before you
(aka a person with more resources thus more pearls available) can catch up to them?

Apart from a few design flaws, everyone starts with the same gear, resources and chances. If someone gets a bow before you, it is your fault. You let them farm enough diamonds.

Okay, so you're telling me I'm supposed to be able with my team full of random players who do not coordinate with me.
To just control and dominate the field with 3-7 other teams present and somehow prevent ALL of them from gathering resources or get it before them without me dying in the process of trying to get them myself when I meet them at mid, while also dealing with teams up to possibly 2 that do have good players and coordinate together and won't go down without a fight.

That just doesn't sound realistic,

And that goes for both Solo and Team. In Solo it may be possible to do that quicker but being jumped by multiple people can still happen and in teams that will be even harder to do as you need to coordinate and stay together if you want to keep the advantage in numbers or to be capable of beating multiple teams at mid who are trying to farm diamonds as well and that can have good players that know how to crit spam you to death or until your armor breaks.

Yes and no. By the time someone gets 25 diamonds it will usually be spend on gear first before they go with other utilities and again it still takes time to get that many to begin with.
No no no, just yes. If a pearl costs 25 diamonds, 50 diamonds and I have every egg. 50 diamonds is nothing, depending on the map. It's one full run back and forth on Tea Party for example. Also, you can't use "usually" in arguments when you change the price of a pearl to 25. Nothing is usual any more. Personally, I would pearl everywhere, 25 is a ridiculous low cost that will break the game.

Of course it's not going to be hard getting resources when most of the competition is already dead lmao.

Then obviously you can get a lot of diamonds because nobody is in your way of doing so,
this happens either way whether pearls are cheap or not.

And somehow that's bad now cause pearls are cheaper?

Being rewarded for surviving and able to get control over mid to get the resources to deal with the remaining teams that probably are going to play very defensive and camp with punch bows? That's bad?

But you need to get to that point first in the first place
and you make it sound like getting every egg and every team
is as easy as trying to pop a balloon with a chainsaw.

As I said it sounds very easy in theory to cheese with ender pearls as soon you collect 25 diamonds, which is why I suggested to test that beforehand as well.

But in the end it's about how good and "broken" it will be in practice not in theory.
I don't think personally it can be done just like that so easily as you claim it will be when you're dealing with other people in your way trying to get resources like you.

in this situation alone, getting 57 diamonds in total will take time lol.
Depends on the map, in bigger maps I have this after going once to mid and running around a bit. On Tea Party, I mostly return with 62 diamonds to buy a 25 dia pick, bow and diamond sword. Again, 25 diamonds is nothing.

You make it sound like it's a cake walk which isn't realistic at all.
As if people won't be in your way of collecting said resources and make use out of them as well like you do.

You bring up the map Tea Party twice, like one of the few maps in which it takes ages to get somewhere, I can imagine it can be easier to get resources but also there are way more teams that are trying to go to mid at the same time just like you so it doesn't sound so free as you claim it to be.

Either way I can see where you're coming from but some of the points you're making don't sound realistic to me.

"Just place blocks in front and in the back and build anti kb bridge and don't fall off while getting shot lol."

"Just go to gather a ton of diamonds at mid without dying."

"Just go break every egg and kill every team, if one of them happens to get a punch bow, it's your fault for allowing that to happen, because you totally have absolute control over multiple individuals all doing their own thing in a regular game of Eggwars and you as a player should be able to be at every location at all times."

That's the message I'm getting based on your responses.
 
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