All Networks Regarding Security and Moderation on CubeCraft

Hi ToonBer, I guess this is the thread you asked me to make. Don’t forget that this exists thanks to you

ToonBer said:

For most people on earth, a child is someone who is not yet an adult, so younger than 18 years old, or around that age. The exact age doesn't really matter, it's just a definition. What I think Thijs meant by this is that people grow and change, so yes, everyone deserves a second chance,

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What you just said is honestly terrible. For most people on Earth (I assume only in your own world, I’d like to believe), because the World Health Organization (WHO) states that an adolescent is between 10 and 19 years old. So, no. If you want to stick with that being the definition, that’s fine; there’s your definition, and I’m proving it’s completely wrong

I love how you say everyone deserves a second chance, but those second chances aren't for everyone, and the ones who get them don't take advantage of them. Pay attention to my words: when I talk about second chances, I’m not referring to someone who did something horrible. What truly surprises me is how users up to 17 years old, whom you call "kids," can break the rules (no cheating) and be forgiven so easily. Ask a person who was affected "mildly" according to you, in another social network where "you couldn't do anything," if they think everyone deserves forgiveness

ToonBer said:

except for what Thijs also said: “Some punishments can never be undone, such as network bans.”

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It’s common sense that critical offenses warranting a Network Ban aren't going to be unbanned; that’s just logic. And within common sense lies the prevention to keep these things from happening. As mentioned above, many times bans are just trophies for other clans or harassers. It does no good to ban a few if the others remain unpunished. You talk about second chances; why don't higher-level people who used to be Moderators deserve second chances? I’m asking you. You mention that people change or make mistakes, but from what I see, that’s not true. In your case, even those with Network Bans also change. I hope you realize how mistaken and wrong you are

ToonBer said:

Since we are volunteers, we are also community members, we also play on the network. That we also have opinions what feels right/odd. This wasn't a general message from the 'mod' team.

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Only after I mention that others should weigh in do I see two more people and a short response at the end. I notice you guys listen more and are more receptive then. Was it really necessary to speak up and expose this publicly for you to listen to the people who have been asking you to hear them for years? Is it necessary to resort to what you call drama just to have a voice? How terrible.

ToonBer said:

In the past, we had a much more detailed list of rules publicly available, but that doesn't mean that we no longer look at things that aren't specifically mentioned now. We noticed that this led to people pushing the boundaries of the rules much more. Some people knew exactly what they could do to get away with something, so we decided to publish a shorter list of rules (the same rules) but with less detailed explanations

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The past? Can you remind me if we are in the present or the past? I think you’re confused. To clarify, we are talking about the present. This present where the main rule-breakers already know your punishment system and what’s bannable and what’s not. Like you mentioned, you guys created a grey area so confusing that it’s even worse now. You are affecting people who have no idea how these internal guidelines work, which are kept internal for a reason that clearly isn't working anymore.

You’ve managed to achieve something incredibly sad: the offenders who used to get away with it by finding a grey area now find even more because there are no clear guidelines or rules, and people with minor infractions don't know what to do. I’m proposing a solution to you and the whole team that is as easy as how other Featured Minecraft servers handle it: they create clear rules and clear punishment guidelines, and they add one more rule or clarification that another decision may be made

Oh wait, that already exists and Camezonda mentioned it, look:

"Our moderation team reserves the right to punish users, even if the issue resides outside of these rules. Therefore, using common sense is advised."

So it’s as easy as clarifying the rules and guidelines even further. You generate more transparency and consistency, and bad actors have less of a chance to get away with it. It’s not that hard, is it? Right now, you have a confusing and unclear system for new players, while veterans or rule-breakers already know the loopholes and grey areas to get away with it. Just think about it, okay?

ToonBer said:

This seems a bit ambiguous to me, and also a strange comparison. But maybe that's just me. Our punishment tracks should be public, but who applied the punished not? Large social media platforms either provide support via robot/AI-driven chats or outsource their support to external companies (e.g., for Discord, the average support response time for safety-related tickets is five months, and for some platforms, you can't even contact them directly). It's what you want: the ability to have direct/fast support and knowing who to contact, or not at all.

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To me, it’s not a strange comparison. I’m comparing the fact that your punishment and report system is strange, very, very strange and not common among platforms, even within your own industry. The only ones using this weird, obsolete, and outdated system are Java servers. More modern models use emails or more automated reports. If you want to talk about being "closer" and "more human" with users, I guess that ends when there’s a criticism, when something is uncomfortable, or when you simply prefer to ignore rather than act. Do you see how that report and what you erroneously call drama was necessary for you to hear what the community has been screaming for years? Even if the greatest terror in CubeCraft history came back to life, the CubeCraft Revolution, now it wouldn't just be because you ignore them or because of the Anticheat; it would be because of the lack of safety, for not listening to the community, for the lack of clarity, and for the lack of transparency. Simply unbelievable

ToonBer said:

It's really sad to hear that, but we are a team and can discuss things with eachother. Nobody should be afraid to punish someone, or ask others for help. I am not going to judge any case on this.

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It's obvious that moderation is afraid to respond to a more critical case or a leader of the famous PvP clans. The last person who tried was demoted over two irrelevant screenshots while the clans remained totally unpunished. They let the full weight of the harassment fall on him, and I had to take over all the security that was supposed to be your responsibility. I never would have intervened in that personal situation if it weren't for your inefficiency and lack of effectiveness. When you see someone terrified because they were threatened with death and you just tell them to ignore it, it’s sad. When those people harass you for 7 months, it’s sad. When you know who they are, you have the evidence, and you just ignore it, it’s pathetic. Let's hope that when people outside of CubeCraft see it everywhere, they ignore it just like you do. With so many cases where you’ve only asked the victim to "distance themselves" or not get involved, you are the ones responsible for those people's safety, not me.

By the way, I’ll mention the specific case of a 19-year-old that Capitan handled. He was mass-harassed; he distanced himself like he was supposed to, and they got his phone number and IP. The only response was to trust that the alts they made were him, and Capitan ended up blaming him for "being involved with them" without even analyzing the case. That is called victim-blaming.

And I’d like to just speak for myself and those close to me, but no. I can mention many cases that I had to follow up on, supporting them and providing knowledge as much as I could, which is something you should cover. It seems like recently Capitan finally made a thread about player safety.

I’m asking here: is it necessary for someone to be mass-harassed and even have their personal information leaked for you to act? Is it not enough evidence that another person is directly involved or hanging out with those people to ban them from the network?

ToonBer said:

he moment I have to start working like the big media platforms, I'm out of here. I became a helper/mod to assist players/people, not to see them as just a (ticket) number. That's why (for me) they can know to who they're talking to.

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This is a quick one for you, ToonBer. You said it yourself: you came here because you wanted to help others as a volunteer, and like you said, you don’t want to see us as just another number. So I ask you: why is it that complaint after complaint is now just another number? Remember, you signed up to look out for players and take responsibility for them, and you did so completely voluntarily and fully aware of what you were getting into

Lastly, about player safety: it’s logical that it shouldn't contain player info, since often they report with their personal information. But for everything else, there is no excuse. Or are you going to use the excuse that they are 17-year-old kids, ToonBer?

Klisee

Hello there, Klisee here again.

I’m glad to know that your response was your own and not a joint effort. I also admire your courage and grit for speaking up instead of just watching in silence; that says a lot about your character. With the exception of the person who actually had to respond because I specifically asked for his feedback and a direct answer (ToonBer), you gave your point of view, and I believe that makes for a more complete feedback loop. Seeing Muhh here as well, knowing you guys are present and listening, is something that makes me happy. As an outside recommendation, I will moderate my comments more; I publicly admit that I have been quite harsh.

I won’t even try to use cheap excuses like everything I and those close to me have had to go through. Part of reflecting and improving, and this goes for the moderation team as well, is accepting mistakes. I accept that I was harsh and even cruel, and you all have accepted that there are significant failures in management. Ideally, things shouldn't have to reach this point, but it's natural for people to get angry. If you don't moderate more effectively and issue sanctions to highly problematic individuals, people feel voiceless and unheard. I’ll even mention the YouTuber situation here, which I’ll keep as brief as possible.

It is the perfect example of where prevention failed: the partner program failed, the warnings about what kind of people they were failed, and specifically, their behavior toward other users and their arrogance were ignored until things reached the point they did. I don’t need you or anyone from moderation or administration to answer this; it’s more of a question for you to think about. Don't you think that with more control over partners and better prevention regarding these types of users, this could have been avoided? Again, this isn't a question for you to answer, but one to analyze and think over.

Thijs said:

While I do not handle player safety, I can see/understand Cam's point in this case that if something happens outside of Cube, it is very difficult to handle, even if both parties are linked to Cube.

For example, if friends X and Y both play CubeCraft, and then friend Y does something wrong to friend X at school, it would not be possible for Cube to take action. Even though they are also connected through Cube, this is something for the school to handle.

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Honestly, I’m very glad you are finally looking at the complaints. I want to firmly believe it’s not just you, but everyone else on Team CubeCraft as well. I personally hope this wake-up call is at least significant for future cases, leading to better clarity regarding harassment. I’m not asking for (Safety Reports) or a (Network Ban) to be made public; I’m just asking for more support and transparency for those of us who have suffered harassment, and for those cases to be handled more responsibly rather than just being ignored. I’ve already seen two public posts regarding safety, and I hope from the bottom of my heart that this is just the beginning of a deep change. We shouldn't have to reach the breaking point for change to occur, nor should people have to reach their limit, live in fear, and have their personal data exposed just for standing up to a group of harassers.

Thijs said:

I do not think I contradicted myself here, because these were two different topics. You said that the “casual” player is getting harassed. I said that casual players are not, because they are not even aware of it.

I would not consider people who are active on the CubeCraft forums to be casual players. They take an extra step to put themselves out there, to read threads, make forum posts, or suggest ideas. Casual players usually would not take the time to do that. They would just play a few games of SkyWars and then move on with their day.

It could be that we define “casual” differently. I tend to see casual more as “average” if that makes sense.

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Well, you’re right; our definitions of a "casual" player are different, or maybe very similar. I think we need to define what a "casual" is first. For me, someone stops being a casual when they are deep within the community, involved in "clans," and caught up in things like the FFA "wars" (which I don’t understand how they are allowed when they are literally Cheater vs Cheater). A casual stops being a casual when they start getting involved in bad things. I’d also like to know your definition of a casual player. For me, it’s a player who just stops by to have fun, and playing a lot more than normal doesn't stop you from being casual; you just want to have more fun.

Thijs said:

Maybe I do not fully understand the word contradiction, but I still feel that this is not a contradiction. As you said, if a guardian gives permission, people aged 13 and - can play.

Also, when you say “So, ideally, there are no kids,”. People aged 13 to 18 are still kids. Even those aged 18 to 21 who are legally adults i would still consider kids as well. I already responded to this point above.

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My concern with this is the minimization that happens when a "young, innocent kid" of 15, 17, or 18 does something horrible. If they are involved in harassment, then we have to forgive them because the "little 18-year-old boy" didn't know what he was doing. I can't think like everyone else, but I believe that someone involved in these types of acts or groups cannot be forgiven so easily. I would personally like to know if these forgiven people actually change and become better, or if they just get even worse. If it weren't for the issue of exposing usernames, I could tell you about 5 cases of "kids" who were forgiven and continued exactly the same or worse than before.

My current problem with the "forgiveness" system (which theoretically should be more internal, yet every cheater and person with bad intentions knows about it) is that if their appeal is permanently denied, they can appeal again in 6 months. I have my doubts if someone who effectively and intentionally chose to cheat, who is involved in these organized groups of harassers and cheaters, and who knew exactly what they were doing because they bypassed the first ban warning and just didn't listen, truly deserves forgiveness. Those people deserve a chance at an unban in 2 to 5 years at the earliest, or maybe 1 year, but 6 months is a joke to those who have to deal with them.

Thijs said:

At this moment, speaking only for moderation, one person is paid. That does not mean that 10–20k people rely on that one person there are still 25 others who are not getting paid.

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What you mentioned is interesting. You told me that the other moderators don't really have a need to respond to this thread, which is completely true and correct. However, this also means they don't have a real obligation to take on so many tickets or reports, since at the end of the day, they are volunteers. I perfectly understand that.

What you mentioned implies that only one person is being paid and the other 25 (the volunteers) are not. Think about what this implies: those 25 volunteers have no real obligation to handle a certain amount of reports or specific work. If they aren't forced, it makes sense because it's volunteer work; if they were forced, it would be wrong because it would be closer to unpaid labor. I sincerely hope my theory that they don't have a weekly or monthly work quota is correct, although my initial problem and concern remain.

This means that for 10,000 or 20,000 players, the entire server community depends on 25 people. This is terrifying just to think about if you ask me. I’ll say it again and emphasize: my problem with this is with the Administration, where they are insufficient in terms of staff.

Thijs said:

I do understand why people might want to know how we decide to punish someone. However, especially with Bedrock reports, this is not always realistic. Recently, there were more than 200 open reports at a single moment. Handling that already takes hours. If we also had to explain every single decision in detail, it would easily take two or three times longer. In many cases, such as when someone is clearly flying, the reason for the punishment is obvious.

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I’m not the one saying it; I’ll leave you with your own words. It isn't realistic to have 200 open reports, and this is very curious. If this were proportional among the 26 people working, assuming all 25 moderators and one administrator worked as they should, they would each have to take 7.69 reports. And that’s assuming this is weekly. If it’s almost daily, it’s terrifying to do this out of the goodness of your heart. If you enjoy it, that’s fine, but it means assuming a critical responsibility.

In a scenario that is more fictional than anything, and as an example to compare how everything stands for you right now: assuming again, theoretically and as an exaggerated example, if there are 26 people and they have to look after 10,000 people, that’s 384.61 people for each one. Again, it’s a hypothetical scenario. The one that matters is the 7.69 reports for the 26 people; it’s clearly insufficient. As Muhh mentioned, more staff is required, and I believe it's best if they are properly paid.

Thijs said:

The real point is that we applied for this ourselves. We chose to do this, and we chose to do it for free. This is not something anyone can blame management for, as it is a volunteer position.

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I think you just gave an answer that I doubt was a good idea to give, if you ask me. I say this with all kindness and respect; I don’t want you to feel like I’m attacking you personally, especially since you’ve responded with kindness and given me that outside recommendation to moderate my words. But I’ll say this:

The problem with downplaying the administration’s responsibility because ("We chose to do this, and we chose to do it for free") is that while I’m glad you enjoy it, you shouldn't use that to kindly downplay cases of harassment, bullying, and worse things happening to the volunteers.

So I ask you, in a friendly and respectful way: if all these cases aren't the fault of the administrators and the staff above you, but they aren't your fault either, then whose fault is it? I would truly like you to answer this sincerely.

Thijs said:

Bringing these points together, I assume your suggestion would be to punish more strictly and harshly, which is a suggestion that some other people would probably agree is a good idea.

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I think that much is clear. I’ll jump ahead because I’m sure I didn’t put words in your mouth. I just think that by using your own words, it’s very easy to contradict you or put you in a tough spot if you don't moderate what you’re saying. To finish the point above: it’s clear, we are asking for you to be stricter, and that’s how it should be. I believe it is undeniably necessary and I sincerely hope it happens; you need to be stricter with things that are ignored today for being a "minor infraction."

I’ll end my response with this: I’ll be honest, and I repeat, with the exception of Toon specifically for some unjustifiable things he’s linked to, my response was not an attack on you personally. If you felt specifically attacked, I am sorry and I apologize for that.

I admit that my way of responding has always been like this, and if I made you feel bad, I apologize and accept my mistake. Personally, I hope that the moderation and administration teams can accept their mistakes just as I am doing, and I hope this is progress toward something better. I’ve seen progress from Capitan regarding user safety, and I hope this is just the beginning of something better.

I’ll close by saying I’m not asking for something extraordinary. I’m not asking for the impossible, nor for anything in return, nor for any favoritism. I just want to be able to play in peace and for others to be able to play in peace too. You can't just let things slide because they are a "minor infraction" according to moderation, and the solution to mass harassment should never again be to just "ignore them." Unfortunately, I haven't been the only one given that terrible answer, and the community spoke up to agree with me.

Don’t worry Thijs, take this as calmly as possible. A comment stronger than usual might affect you more or less, and as someone who values dialogue and respect, I will do my part. But imagine if this seemed harsh to you; I want you to consider what it was like to be harassed for 7 full months and only receive an "ignore them" or "let's just forget this." I think with that, from a more human perspective, you can understand how I feel. I can handle this; I’ve dealt with worse harassment before. But do you think kids, teenagers, and young adults can all tolerate it the same way? Just analyze that, and I hope this feedback helps build a CubeCraft that is as free from harassment as possible. It’s never going to disappear completely because that’s impossible, but letting these cases go unpunished is unforgivable. Have a good day.

Klisee