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ymbmg95's guide to tower defence, part two: pro teaming

Discussion in 'Tower Defence' started by ymbmg, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. ymbmg

    ymbmg Member

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    So I've decided to do a follow-up to my last guide, a part two. This one will include new concepts for defense and offense, review a few old ones, give a few small tips about how to handle situations, and take a look into my personal thoughts in game. For credibility purposes, I'm again listing my stats below, and then we'll jump right into the good stuff.
    [​IMG]

    83.3333333333333333333% of all of the matches I've been in... I've won. Since the time of posting the first part of my guide, I've lost once, and disconnected twice. AFK teammates.... moving on.


    Defense

    As it turns out, I did spare details in defense, and I'm posting more here. There are parts of the map that are crucial or critical for defense during rushes. These parts are known as "critical points" as mentioned in part one. However, there's more to placing towers in optimal positions during rushes, there's also how fast you can place them. I'm not referring to how fast you can move physically, although that matters to an extent. I'm instead referring to the shortcuts that can be used when placing and upgrading towers. After you've placed a tower, you can hold shift and right-click to place your most recently placed tower. So for example... if you've placed a sorcerer tower, then a quake tower, and finally an artillery tower, and you hold shift, then right-click on a valid place for a tower, it'll place an artillery tower down. You can also upgrade towers by holding shift and right-clicking the tower itself.

    "Creepers!"... What a terrifying message, be it vanilla Minecraft or Tower Defence. (America spells it with an "s" instead of a "c") How can you maximize the damage done to them? How can you match their regeneration? So let's begin reviewing a few ideas mentioned before. Of course, "quality over quantity" is an important idea for starters. The number of times a mob is hit while in range matters here. You can fill half of the whole of demons with only level one artillery towers and twelve creepers will happily stroll passed all of them. Why? Well it's because they'll only fire one artillery every ten seconds and they'll happily be regenerating all the while. However, if you place five artillery and one quake tower all near each other, all maxed... you'll fire often enough damage to overpower their regeneration, you'll keep them in the range of the other towers, and the artillery towers will be firing four TNT each and every time they hit. Really though, three artillery and one quake all maxed should do it, but it's better to have five, this will help stop other rushes as well as make speed potions a bit more irrelevant.

    Let's talk about necromancer towers, how you should position them, their strength, and their weakness. Necromancer towers are ideal for taking down giants, and yes, you can kill giants with other towers, but necromancer towers are ideal for it. Believe it or not, iron golems aren't amazing all on their own. I would expect one of them to kill one creeper on their own, (per rush) and that's about it. Towers nearby would obviously contribute some, but on their own, golems just don't do much. So why would I recommend them? How do you bring out the best of them? If you have four of them near each other, and you freeze a giant right as it walks by the necromancer towers, then the giant's health will drop. We're talking from full health to nothing in a matter of six or seven seconds. When a golem lifts a mob, the mob's movement is impaired ever so slightly. It's almost like the mob is being stunned by the golem. You see, a golem takes time to target a mob even when the mob's in range. I'd say it takes about a full second before the mob makes contact with the golem. The freeze potion is ideal for them to gather around it, but then when they lift a giant together, it's practically immobilized. I call this idea "golem unison lifting". This is one of the few concepts that I didn't observe until after I nearly had all of the towers unlocked. In fact, necromancer towers were the last towers for me to get. There's a caution to using four necromancer towers and expecting them to drop a giant though, if other mobs are nearby, the golems may target the other mobs instead of the giant. I've come to call this concept "golem error", (It's not really an error or a glitch, I've simply come to call it that because it's a short name.) and there's another tower that I'll talk about with a similar issue. Before I move on, I'd like to say that I've seen five necromancer towers take down five giants all at once, just in case you were wondering how many more would be necessary to take out several giants.

    So above I mentioned that there was another tower with an error, so to speak. On part one of my guide, I briefly stated that the wither's bullets could be stopped by a sorcerer tower's mobs. It's worth mentioning here that even with sixteen sorcerer towers all next to each other, that if the other team sends even a few creepers, the sorcerer mobs are likely to leave the wither for a moment. During that moment, the wither may or may not fire at a tower, and you'll lose a tower. I've come to call this "sorcerer error". Generally speaking, if they do target other mobs, there's still an optimal way to minimize the number of towers that the wither destroys. Which leads me to.... pictures! (Teammates taken out of the picture.)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Alright, so here we are again... back to defense optimization. So these two pictures were taken at the map Original. We have a lot here worth mentioning, but before I get too far in detail, let me just say that defense doesn't stop here. We place even more towers as the game progresses. Let's pick apart what we see now! Defense looks good in many ways. It's clear that we've taken care of the mobs that a giant lets out a bit in the back, and we've placed several necromancer towers to take out those giants. The wither defense is nearly complete, (more on priorities later) and there are tower combos all over. The quake towers stun mobs near the artillery towers, the ice towers slow mobs down near the archer towers and the artillery towers in the back, and though you can't see it... a few of my teammates have meteor potions on hand and ready. The overtime towers (mage and poison) effectively take out ground mobs (especially creepers and witches) early on, as to minimize sorcerer and golem error. The second ice tower slows down slimes and such whilst the mobs are still in the vicinity of the artillery towers, and the critical spots on the map have been filled with towers! Defense truly has a spark to it... I personally believe it looks really good... now let's talk about all of the flaws in it as well. Another necromancer tower would've made five or more giants into a joke, but I believe we had another one down after a minute or two. The back quake tower should be one tower further to the right in order to get better corner coverage and maximize its area. (Its area matters more than that of the artillery towers.) The mage tower closest to the necromancer towers should be on the side with one of the artillery towers instead, and perhaps the artillery tower that would be replaced by the mage should be moved by the ice tower. This would allow the artillery tower to hit the mobs several times as they walk around that corner, because mobs at normal speed won't be hit twice, (even with the ice tower there) let alone several times by that mage tower. Having the artillery tower hit several times around would maximize the damage on the ground mobs, and defense would be just that much better.... I'll tell you from experience that those two flaws/non-optimal tower placements alone don't dictate whether mobs make it passed or not. I'm almost certain that it wouldn't matter in this match, however, I'm here to pick apart defense and spot what isn't optimal, and what is.

    Just a quick note on a few towers and facts. Regeneration potions heal cave spiders faster than mage towers, and so looking for other ways to damage them may help you stop them. Finally, quake towers do not target, or affect skeletons or wither skeletons at all. So placing a quake tower or two during skeleton rushes will leave you with unsatisfactory results.

    Offense

    So here we go, the edge that pierces through enemy lines... offense. Regardless of which mobs you send, there are a few things you should avoid doing, and here are some of them. For starters, a general rule to live by... if it didn't do damage the first time, it's highly likely that it won't work a second time. By the time you send it again, their defense will have probably gotten a bit stronger, and let's be honest, if you've seen it once, it's not a long-shot to say that you'll see it again. So consider other means of offense at that point.

    With that out of the way, we can look at what makes offense truly scary, especially when it comes to using blazes. Let's say that you're on defense. Think back if you've ever seen someone use blazes or anything worrisome. What was the most terrifying offense that you've seen while on defense? What was the most clever thing that you've seen them do? What did they do that made you panic? If you're up for it, think about it yourself before reading on. Alright, so let's talk about it. Imagine that you're still defense again for a moment, and that you're facing your own offense. If you throw a meteor potion, an inferno potion, or a Zeus rage potion, and suddenly, the person going offense tosses out a speed potion, then they've now made their offense move through your potion's range at a much faster pace, and have thus minimized the damage done to offense's mobs. If you're defense and you throw a freeze potion, they can capitalize on it by throwing a regeneration potion. Either way, offense should bare this in mind... going offense is a quick, tactical, and action-provoking game between offense and defense. You can optimize your own offense just as you can optimize defense.

    Pro Teaming

    This is where you and the team you're on make the transformation from good to pro. All ideas posted from here on will be based on prior knowledge gained or considered from everything above. The content from here on will assume you or your team are ready to be one that is top notch, and ranks above the others. I'll pull no punches.

    Mob Live-streaming... another concept named by yours truly. If you're on the team that's a cut above the rest, you should avoid constantly sending one mob at a time. Whether it be for exp, or as real offense, you shouldn't send one at a time. Sending one mob at a time means that the other team can take out your mobs one-by-one, easily. Keep in mind your exp ratios and the fact that you're handing them real cash by sending the other team higher priced mobs. You risk giving them money to do a terrifying offense suddenly against you, and you won't have the money to handle it because you were trying to rush for exp. Even defense can fall because of offense's mistakes... and offense can fail because of defense's mistakes. Should defense send too much money to the other side by live-streaming mobs (sending mobs in one-by-one), their defense will end up with enough coins to take out offense, even if they haven't placed optimally at critical spots. If offense fails, and defense was streaming mobs, then what's solid on your team? Defense is practically broke from streaming and offense may no longer stand a real chance. Mob live-streaming and throwing off the proper goldmine speed are what's been called "spazz-sending" in game by my team.

    Proper goldmining - This is a concept that refers to sending zombies and only zombies, with one or two at the most going for cave spiders. You threaten the balance when you get exp, send things like pigmen continuously, and then risk leaving yourself, and your team open. My team goes for 25 cps at most, (it's rare for any of us at all to go for 50 cps) and we all hurry there using only mobs such as zombies and maybe a few of us going for cave spiders. I'm not joking in the slightest when I say that my team once threw off the balance by having several of us go for 50 cps. We stood against 12 giants prior to armageddon mode, four at first, followed by the others live-streamed at us. We won using the defense tactics and optimization stated thus far, and it was a truly eye-opening match. We were lucky that they didn't support their offense optimally, for if they had, we might've lost that match. I recommend only using zombies in the most serious of matches. Holding shift and left-clicking a mob takes the amount that you'll send up to the max that you can send of it for that wave. Likewise, holding shift and right-clicking a mob takes the amount of that that you'll send in the next wave... down to 0. So if you had 5 creepers ready to be sent, and you shift-left-clicked (holding shift, then left-clicking) zombies, it would make the number of zombies going into next wave... go up to 7, because you can only send 12 mobs per wave. A slight tangent on this topic, your mobs give you exp for them, only at the moment when they die.

    Establishing priority tower placement - So what's optimal for tower placement timing? Surely you can't have 12 necromancer towers up in the first 5 seconds, and you want about 4 or 5 before armageddon mode,... but when? When should we have them up? Which towers need to be up before the others? I can't give a straight answer for that, it changes from match to match, but generally, you should have a bit of coins on hand for any rush. Then when one comes, you should place towers effectively in order to counter them. Of course, having down some of each as the game progresses helps take the load off when a particular rush comes. Eventually, you should have enough sorcerer towers and artillery towers down to stop the wither, enough archer towers (and meteor potions) to stop blazes, enough necromancer towers to stop giants, and so on... by armageddon mode. In case you didn't see it, or have forgotten it, I've posted on the first guide what I find nice or optimal by armageddon mode.

    The offense-defense balance - How many should be offense? Ultimately, that should be up to you and your team. Personally, I like having 1 as offense, and the rest as defense. As long as you keep a very good defense going, you should be good. I'm leaving this one up for grabs, just because I think it would be interesting to see this be tweaked while two pro teams are against each other. Generally though, I recommend 1 on offense, the rest on defense for pro teams.

    Being reliable as a player - Talk about rough on any person... When a teammate goes afk, it causes tension among the team, and usually, your team has a weakness in some way when someone's afk. Generally, it's disliked by many pros and it's something that you shouldn't do often, the same goes for leaving mid-match. You can't help at all if you suddenly leave or go afk, and that leads us to the next idea... not responding to rushes. If you're on defense, or in rare cases, even offense, and you don't handle rushes either fast enough, or you don't place optimally, or you don't use potions correctly, then your reliability as a player will drop some. You can be unreliable as offense too, by lying about the timing of your offense, being behind in goldmine, not telling defense what's coming in case they're building towers, going afk while playing... well, I think you get the point. Just try not to be unreliable really. Most teams that can't stand each other person's defense, or place towers at spawn to take coins from each other.... they either split, or lose.



    Thanks all for reading! I'm glad to have had the time to share my info with you all.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  2. ymbmg

    ymbmg Member

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    Also, I feel I should add as a comment below... I do not like being supported with potions when I'm on offense.
     
  3. Seren__

    Seren__ Member

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    I have a tower combination that works wonders for me at the start. It's a waste of a corner, but if you place a mage tower, and an ice tower at a point where mobs have to circle back around, it's guaranteed to kill zombies and cave spiders. Upgrading both in the very start of the match with the help of one other person leaves everyone else free to send mobs, or build up gold for tower placement. It's my strategy to stop the initial zombie rush, with minimal setup.
     
  4. emmy

    emmy Member

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    well said ymb :)
     
  5. hyena3000

    hyena3000 Member

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    Thanks for sharing your insights!

    I do have a question now, actually 2.

    1. Facing such a defense would be very discouraging. You said it can take down giants and blazes as well as the less dangerous Wither. Is there a way to break through it?

    2. Referring to that defense and what you said about 1 attacker and 5 defenders, if you only have 1 attacker, how is he/she ever supposed to break through it? Given 2-3 giants at one time would fail and only 12 blazes are going to be frozen to death at the archers.

    Thanks again!
     
  6. ymbmg

    ymbmg Member

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    Ah yes, if you're against a real defense, you might not be able to break through it alone. That's why the balance will be up for grabs if you ever have two teams facing off. You could try having more than one person on offense, but be sure not to leave defense too weak.

    As for the blazes, they get through almost all defense. As of right now, I've only seen my blazes die roughly 15 times or so... out of my 1213 (current games played) games.
     
  7. hyperBravo

    hyperBravo Member

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    I like your guides. I've never seen a well-detailed TD guide and you gave a lot of detail as a long-time player. It's like you mastered the game. I just got one question.

    What are your comments on the leach tower? I've recently learned that you can make the enemy team waste a leach shockwave if their leach tower is placed near spawn and you send 1 creeper or a wave of zombies to bait. Creepers last a while to charge a few bars for the leach tower.

    Once their leach is wasted, you can send in bigger troops such as giants or blazes while the first leach needs to recharge. I don't know the price of a leach tower (going to assume same as necro), but that's 2.3k gold you made the enemy team waste in that case. Similarly in SC2, it's possible to make the enemy waste resources on unneeded units/defenses because one made certain "bait" units.
     
  8. LooksLikeHacks

    LooksLikeHacks Member

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    Lol is TOWER defence your life or something. P
     
  9. Seren__

    Seren__ Member

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    I only play TD on cubecraft, none of the other games interest me, and TD is something I really enjoy.
     
  10. hyperBravo

    hyperBravo Member

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    Lately, same here. Only problem is sometimes being forced to play solo style because of a bad team.
     
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  11. ♡♡♡♡

    ♡♡♡♡ Member

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    Tower defence is every1's life whether they like it or not :p
     
  12. hyperBravo

    hyperBravo Member

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    SC2 for progamers. Heck, some of the stuff I learned there such as getting opponent's information and macroing (macromanaging) apply to this TD.
     
  13. ymbmg

    ymbmg Member

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    I'm not a fan of leach towers. I've a subsection on it in the first part of my guide, under defense somewhere. They're nice when they pull through, but I don't recommend relying on them.
     
  14. hyperBravo

    hyperBravo Member

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    I agree with that after finding out on my own that leaches can be wasted. Most of the time they take too long to charge. That's not the main reason though. Main reason is if mobs are not getting through the leaches, let alone in range, then they're not charging. If that's the case or if the enemy team forces your leach to go off (especially if your leach is near spawn), then that's 2.5k coins down the drain.

    People think it's a good tower, but with those cons in mind, it's way too situational to use. As a practical tower, it sucks.
     
  15. Atifmo

    Atifmo Member

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    If you going to defend how to get Money fast and you dont have any money for mobs? Thanks for the tips
     
  16. hyperBravo

    hyperBravo Member

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    Build a few towers at spawn to increase your income. If you're not fortunate with building TNT towers at spawn, then immediately spawn your first wave of zombies. Always remember to summon cost-effective mobs such as zombies and cave spiders every 15 seconds (you have 500 gold, enough for 4 zombie waves). Repeat as much as needed. Done right, you can get the level 1 gold mine upgrade in a little over a minute. Once your income can support caves, incorporate them into your waves. Summon a mixed number of caves and zombies if you don't have enough for a full wave of caves.

    The idea as a defending player is to spawn a set number of mobs just to get the gold mine and potions you need. 25 CPS is enough but 50 CPS (if you can risk it and get it fast) is much much better. Late game, you can switch to offense and defense as needed thanks to your high CPS if you executed your build order correctly.

    Key things you can control to remember and practice:
    -Your build order
    -Good macro (macromanagement) practice (e.g. always spawning mobs every 15 seconds to maximize your XP/minute)
    -Tower placement
    -You can't control having a competent team, but this is also one factor that determines if a team is strong or weak.
     
  17. xNymusx

    xNymusx Member

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    I gotta say this is quite helpful.
    I'm quite angry at myself for buying the Leech Tower, I've never seen it do something really crucial for winning the game. It looks awesome and upgrading it is pretty cheep, but other than that it not that good. It deals little damage and takes quite a while to charge.

    But here's my biggest problem: My team.
    I'm serious, 80% of all people I play with are either stupid, rude or just completely incompetent.
    And I don't necessarily mean newbies here. As long as they're not offensive and let me explain everything to them, I even enjoy teaching them how to play properly.
    I'm not a pro, I've played like 30 games of td or something, but still: there was one game were I could explain the game to somebody who had no idea whatsoever, who listened to me and really wanted to get better. My team easily won in the end. But EVERY other time, people who play badly (meaning they misplace towers which annoys me like crazy, go afk, hit too fast to deal real damage, build rows and rows of mages, ice- or poison towers, never send troops) either ignore me completely, start insulting me or are just generally being rude, pretending they know better anyway.
    In most cases, if I write something, I don't get any answer whatsoever.

    In half the games I played without friends, I practically had to do everything alone, defense and offense, because my team was basically useless.
    It really takes the fun out of it, what do you guys do against that?
    -xNymusx
     
  18. hyperBravo

    hyperBravo Member

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    This is why I suggested a 1v1 TD gamemode partially because of incompetent teammates. A bad team alone can make the game almost impossible since you won't have enough money for a good defense or a good offense alone. Most of the time, it's that: you won't have a good teammate - most of the time they won't work with the team. Heck, I've had at least one or two games where we had to votekick a teammate out because he refused to cooperate, even threatening to report him for team griefing if he refused to relocate and build proper towers after many explanations and reminders.