Minecraft PC IP: play.cubecraft.net

Implemented Tower Defence Map Design

Do you think TD Maps are not just about the looks? (Please explain when voting no)

  • Yes, there is more to TD Maps than just the looks

  • No, TD Maps just need to look pretty


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Shotgun

Member
Jun 26, 2020
82
170
44
1602490973864.png

As you can see in the message above, designers are convinced that "you don't have to worry about gameplay" when building maps for Tower Defence. "Just make a good-looking map."

However, as a more experienced TD player, I am convinced that this is not the case. It happens to be that 48 other Tower Defence players (about 40% of them being experienced players and 15% professionals at least) agree with me on this point.

Original Message
1602494413633.png

(48 cuz one vote is from me and one vote is from the reaction adding account) (0 nays because the one that did react was the reaction adding account)
Tower Defence maps have to look pretty, I completely agree with that. In a game of TD it happens regularly you have to wait about 12 seconds. In this time, few players like to watch at a stone brick wall. You just have to get a proper map built around your game to make it even more enjoyable.

Though, there are a few points that are even more important about a map. These are listed below:

The Length of a Track
This is one of the most important things to keep in mind. If the track is too short, rushes would be far too op and the defending of these rushes would be far too difficult. However, too long tracks can create the "tie-problem" (I'm gonna use TP as a reference in the future). If the defence has completely been built up, there is no possible way to win the game anymore. No attack would come through at that moment. That's what makes the game about One Hit (I'm gonna use OH as a reference in the future). Whoever gets the first hit will win the game, because if you just try hard defend, there is no way your opponents could break through after that point.

The Amount of Tower Spots of a Track
This is also an important thing to keep in mind. It's because of the same reasons as above, too much can cause the TP and OH. Too few could passively buff the rush strategy incredibly to a point of imbalance.
But, this is not the only reason. What if you create too few tower spots at the end of a track? This would passively buff rush strategies as well. Or too few towers at the start and too much towers on the end of the track. This would passively nerf the rush strategies to a point of imbalance.

The Balance Between 5x5 and 3x3 Tower Spots
Another point you have to keep in mind when building a map. Let us have a look at Hillside to explain this. Hillside has a length of 280 blocks, 103 spots to build 3x3 towers on and a total of 32 designated for 5x5 towers. This makes this the map with the least 3x3 tower spots and the most 5x5 spots. The medium length combined with 32 5x5 spots and a Turret Tower cause the TP and OH as well as a passive nerf to blaze rush strategies. Also, it makes the game boring due to the Turret spam.

"The Ultimate Tower Spots"
What I mean by this is Tower spots that can hit multiple lanes. A small visual to explain what I mean:

Ultimate Tower Spots:
TTTTTT
SSSSST
TTTTTT

Normal Tower Spots:
TTTTTT
SSSSSS

T for Track
S for Spot

These Towers we may count as 1,5 - 2 times as effective than "normal" Towers. Too much of these causes (again) the TP and OH. Also, too much of these towers at the end of the track passively nerfs rushes. Too few at the end passively buffs rushes. It's not that you have to remove these though. These spots, used in a balanced way, can get a more interesting way of playing and open up new strategies.

Track Splits
For explaining this, I asked @Doc // Angel to explain this, as she is more familiar with creating splits than I am. She does this by using two tracks, one made by the designers (already in-game) and one community-made (not completed yet, or implemented).

The first being Oceana:
1602493723991.png

The second being a community-build track:
1602494150479.png

From here it's her explanation:

Splits are an important factor of a TD map. They provide you with a double edged sword. On one hand it allows mobs to relax sometimes before getting pelted by endless OP towers, but on the other hand it also allows for powerful mob combos from being split up so they don't overtake your defenses that easily.

I used to play a game called Clone Wars Adventures that had a TD mini-game. It had splits on some of the maps and also had splits with just for where enemy's spawn. I had designed some maps for that game and have designed a few TD maps. This allowed me to work with towers and also how I found a love and understood how splits should work.

Comparing Oceana to My Map, Oceana embodies multiple issues that contradict what I said earlier, there are so many odd splits that allow mobs to be broken down, but that's only if you have tons of towers. However even still, strong mobs can be rushed and easily win the game.
Also, there are not enough towers, and the track is actually way to short for having those splits.

Splits require testing. Immense testing, this track here has been in the works for months as I had to constantly test times it takes for mobs to cross, damage values of towers in relation to health, and other factors like potions or even my own original towers. This track here allows mobs to have a tough time breaking through but also some mobs face different challenges depending on the track they are. This allows for some new strategies and to pay attention to make sure you are using all your resources efficiently.

I also want to mention a different thread about maps feedback. I quote: "However, sometimes there are players who play the game a lot and have some feedback that could be valuable for new maps and specifically gameplay." I, again, quote (as response to the first quote): "our Designers have a very good sense of what makes gameplay fun".

I believe the thread was made with a wink to Tower Defence as @CrystalDrop is a well known and respected TD Professional. If we take a look at what I explained above, I don't think the quotes above add up with that. Apparently the designers are convinced that they know what they are doing, but this shows they may have overrated themselves.

I am actually gonna quote two more messages from Discord, the response being from a Senior Designer (or higher up the ranks), the first message being:
1602495076982.png


The second one, in response to the first, being:
1602495108319.png


These messages don't add up with my points in this thread as well...

After all, I think you should reconsider this thread regarding TD Maps. Also, I suggest you change the text shown in the first message (as referenced from this thread).

Finally, I just want to mention that the message from the image at the start could be a mistake by the Design Team and that they are aware of the importance of the TD Maps. Though, they just forgot to mention that. If this is true, it doesn't take away the truth of the importance regarding TD Maps and that I still think you should reconsider the thread of CrystalDrop.

Thanks for reading this essay.

A few tags for people who most likely will be interested in this thread:

@Younisco because he recently organised a community talk about Tower Defence in which parts of this matter were discussed as well.
@mitgobla @Efcluke94 @Story @Yamín because they are admin and designer combined.
@rubik_cube_man because he is an admin and designer combined, and also was actively participating in the TD Community Talk
@CrystalDrop @Savvy @iLxgend because they are TD professionals and are interested in building maps for TD
@Doc // Angel because he is interested in building maps for TD
@Matriox because he is interested in anything related to TD (but doesn't like reading, gl with this one 😉)

I don't think it's usefull to count double votes so below is a list of the people who voted yes to the discord message:
1602495704160.png
1602495754930.png
1602495794282.png
1602495826175.png
1602495849418.png
1602495871376.png

If you partly agree with this thread, please mention below so I can add a voting option.[/spoiler]
 
Last edited:

CrystalDrop

Member
Aug 9, 2017
127
395
104
19
USA
1602532352396.png


As a side note: Maybe even creating a simple Cubecraft discord channel where some community members can get sneak peeks on upcoming maps so then they can give feedback. (This does not only have to be for Tower Defense) Not saying you have to exactly listen to the feedback because I do know that the designers are very experienced and work hard, but at least hear what we have to say before releasing it and who knows, maybe it will be helpful! Thank you for making this post Shotgun!
 

Enⅾer

Member
Aug 18, 2019
1,097
3,002
284
15
Cali
www.cubecraft.net
Great post! Nice to see that people are thinking about this because that was my one big issue with the Oceana map, it looked beautiful but absolutely SUCKS for gameplay. And since a lot of the designers dont know the game well or dont play it at all i think it would be great if more experienced players look them over or just build the tracks for designers to build around (not sure if this would work but it seems cool). Either way awesome thread and thanks for making this!
 

Efcluke94

👀
Staff member
Admin Team
Designer
Oct 20, 2013
2,930
8,305
468
Hi I'll be honest this is a very long thread. I've scan read it and I imagine the gist is allowing the community to submit tracks? As any TD player could design this and the TD community know the maps much better than any designer.

Honestly love this idea!

Gameplay is really difficult for many team members as we have so many games. This is only something people get better at with experience and time. However if the players make the level templates it will be easy for a designer to make it pretty
 
Jul 23, 2016
5,454
10,959
609
16
Look behind you... ;)
Hi I'll be honest this is a very long thread. I've scan read it and I imagine the gist is allowing the community to submit tracks? As any TD player could design this and the TD community know the maps much better than any designer.

Honestly love this idea!

Gameplay is really difficult for many team members as we have so many games. This is only something people get better at with experience and time. However if the players make the level templates it will be easy for a designer to make it pretty

Will their be more discussion on how we can submit templates and work with your team to ensure future TD maps are 100% amazigness?
 

Efcluke94

👀
Staff member
Admin Team
Designer
Oct 20, 2013
2,930
8,305
468
Will their be more discussion on how we can submit templates and work with your team to ensure future TD maps are 100% amazigness?
errr considering it's almost 11 and I still need to cook food, not quite yet lol... nvm I opened up map submissions and updating thread. Now that I look at thread could probably be made a little nicer.

TLDR: working on it now but might have to eat first
(867) Keep this in mind when building a map - WIP (hopefully 20 mins and I'm done) - Google Ch...png

Update:
I didn't eat yet... sad times. But there is a nice new section and headings that should help explain. Gonna put implemented on this
(867) Keep this in mind when building a map - WIP (hopefully 40 mins and I'm done eating atm) ...png

Update 2:
I have eaten all is well... @Shotgun fired a lot of feedback and I've updated the thread with their suggestions
(867) Keep this in mind when building a map _ CubeCraft Games - Google Chrome 13_10_2020 12_26...png
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Discord
Members Online

Team Online

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

ckelting262 wrote on Younisco's profile.
WOW, you finally got helper! long time coming :)
Mivkeee wrote on Younisco's profile.
congrats on demote. deserved 99%
_The13thDoctor_ wrote on Younisco's profile.
I am confused. But I approve.
Ben wrote on Younisco's profile.
Congrats on Helper!
MrTommy wrote on Younisco's profile.
Wut happend? Did you finally got helper?
Top Bottom