Minecraft PC IP: play.cubecraft.net

Should an elo system be implemented? If yes, select all that apply.

  • Yes, but only as a representative number privately listed in a player's stats.

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • Yes, and make it a new leaderboard.

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Yes, and use it to avoid pairing players of vastly different skill.

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Yes, and give players advantages and disadvantages based on differences in skill.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, with some other mechanic.

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • No, it should not exist in any way.

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9

Powerofbeds

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Oct 17, 2016
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Every game on the Cubecraft server has statistics that show various numbers regarding a player's gameplay. One such statistic determines the leaderboard for that game. I was thinking of another statistic called elo, a concept invented by Arpad Elo originally designed for tennis, but it has been adopted by various games such as chess and backgammon. Elo is a number that purely represents a player's skill. A player could play ten thousand of a certain type of game but just not have a natural talent for it and thus still not be quite as good as someone who has only played a hundred games (a common reason for this would be that the more experienced player does not have as much experience with PvP in general, while the other player does and can therefore still win). A player's elo will never increase unless they get better at the game (i.e. this is not a statistic that will increase with games played, such as wins, kills in most games, egg breaks in eggwars, or Snowman Survival medals). My suggestion is to introduce Elo into a player's statistics. This has been suggested before, both by me and by some other people on the Cubecraft forums, but I am suggesting it only as a representative number, rather than a way of ensuring players are matched only with other players of similar skill, as this idea has been commonly regected because it would severely slow matchmaking.

A player's elo would likely begin at a higher number if they already have a high Elo in similar games, but I'll explain an example using an 8-player game of Skywars and a starting elo of 1000. If everyone goes into a game with 1000 elo, the total elo at the start of the game is 8000, so the total elo at the end of the game must also be 8000 (to prevent players from getting a higher elo by just playing more than everyone else). For example, after the game, the winner's new elo is 1020, 2nd is 1005, 3rd is 1002, 4th is still 1000, 5th is 998, 6th is 995, 7th is 992, and the first dead is 988. The total elo of all the players is unchanged, but the winner gains the most elo while some of the players who died first lose some of their own. For bigger differences in elo rating (as, again, it is a representative number because using it as a system to ensure even matchmaking would slow it), players of higher elo will gain less elo for winning and lose more for losing. For a two-player duel with one player at 1500 elo and the other at 800, the player of higher elo would gain only 1 point for winning, but would lose 30 points for losing due to the extreme difference in ratings (in a real elo system, the higher-rated player would actually lose closer to 57 points, but this is just an example). This further ensures that elo is based entirely on skill and not how many games someone has played, as winning the same amount of elo for every game would mean infinite grinding against noobs.

Here are a few ideas of how this could also be more than a representative number among a player's statistics:
  • Use players' elo ratings to ensure players of high skill are not paired with players of low skill. Again, this would slow matchmaking, but if matchmaking is going sufficiently fast, this can ensure that someone who is brand new to a game like Snowman Survival (where basically all the experience a player has in other areas of Minecraft goes out the window) is not paired with someone like me, who has played over five thousand games of it. This would slow matchmaking and would likely be used only on Bedrock edition as the player base is larger, and would only be used to prevent extreme differences of skill levels in a game.
  • Make a leaderboard for the players of highest elo rating. This does not have to replace the leaderboards that already exist in each game. This could be an alternate leaderboard that shows the most skilled players, rather than merely those who have played the most.
  • If there is a significant difference in elo ratings in a game, give the players with lower rating an advantage and give those of higher rating a disadvantage. This should be subtle. The main takeaway of this is that it could encourage sandbagging (intentionally losing games to play easier opponents, or, in this case, get an advantage).
These are some examples of how this system could be used. I'm eager to see what other ideas you might have to share. Thanks for reading!
 

Roxrock

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I feel like adding this make cubecraft games too competitive. In games that have an elo system, or ranked mode, there is almost always a casual mode that allows players to play carefreely without worrying about loosing anything more than the game. This is great for players who don’t play in parties with highly skilled teammates, players who want to try offbeat or weird strategies or challenges, or players who sacrifice their odds of survival for something else (etc, players who die because their other party member died, players trying to create reports for players or bugs) I don’t expect every cubecraft player to try their absolute hardest every single game, and I think eggwars is the only game where a separate ranked mode could be justified. I don’t mind being placed with lesser players in matches, and I dislike the idea of a single number being used to define and compare one’s skill.
 

Powerofbeds

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I feel like adding this make cubecraft games too competitive. In games that have an elo system, or ranked mode, there is almost always a casual mode that allows players to play carefreely without worrying about loosing anything more than the game. This is great for players who don’t play in parties with highly skilled teammates, players who want to try offbeat or weird strategies or challenges, or players who sacrifice their odds of survival for something else (etc, players who die because their other party member died, players trying to create reports for players or bugs) I don’t expect every cubecraft player to try their absolute hardest every single game, and I think eggwars is the only game where a separate ranked mode could be justified. I don’t mind being placed with lesser players in matches, and I dislike the idea of a single number being used to define and compare one’s skill.
That's a great idea! It would absolutely work out well if players still had the option of going into games without risk of losing anything. I do crazy challenges myself sometimes, usually with full intent of losing, but I feel like if both modes are available, it means more fun for everyone. This also wouldn't mean slower matchmaking; it would just mean less people are affected at the end of the game when elo is lost and won. If you dislike the idea of a single number being used to define and compare skill, you could play exclusively in the casual mode to avoid that.
 

Thjis

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Jan 26, 2021
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Heee, I think elo based matchmaking would not be that great to have. I do think it would be fun for casual players who dont play often or are "Less good", because they will not face those 1-2 minute eggwars games where 4 different good players on 1 team win really fast. For me the negatives outweigh it tho. With really long matchmaking (probably even in the afternoon/early evening) or a lot of high ping fights bcs of the region not being the key part for the matchmaking. Also i do think a lot of players just want to play for fun sometime and play competitive the other time. While making a different non elo gamemode would fix this it would also split the playerbase even more. Alsooo things like dropping elo on purpose would be a thing and that would be no fun either.

Still love the thread! :heart:
 

Roxrock

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That's a great idea! It would absolutely work out well if players still had the option of going into games without risk of losing anything. I do crazy challenges myself sometimes, usually with full intent of losing, but I feel like if both modes are available, it means more fun for everyone. This also wouldn't mean slower matchmaking; it would just mean less people are affected at the end of the game when elo is lost and won. If you dislike the idea of a single number being used to define and compare skill, you could play exclusively in the casual mode to avoid that.
Yes, the issue I believe this has is that not all cubecraft mode could sustain both a competitive mode and a casual one. I think it might be possible for eggwars, since its player base is generally competitive and their total player count is high, but obviously not ever different version of eggwars (number of players per team) could sustain its own ranked mode.

Another issue with elo in particular is that it works a whole lot better in 2 player games specifically. If the elo system you described, being based on outlasting other players, was added, players who camp the whole game would gain elo, while players who go for kills and play aggressive would loose elo. In two player games, this is eliminated, as elo can be completely determined by which player wins and looses, and neither player is effected by poor teammates or third party attackers.

My problem isn’t really with a number defining my skill in particular, but becoming a common way for people to say “I’m better than this player” I’m worried that an elo system could turn certain games into toxic measuring competitions, which could impact the cubecraft community as a whole.
 

Powerofbeds

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Yes, the issue I believe this has is that not all cubecraft mode could sustain both a competitive mode and a casual one. I think it might be possible for eggwars, since its player base is generally competitive and their total player count is high, but obviously not ever different version of eggwars (number of players per team) could sustain its own ranked mode.

Another issue with elo in particular is that it works a whole lot better in 2 player games specifically. If the elo system you described, being based on outlasting other players, was added, players who camp the whole game would gain elo, while players who go for kills and play aggressive would loose elo. In two player games, this is eliminated, as elo can be completely determined by which player wins and looses, and neither player is effected by poor teammates or third party attackers.

My problem isn’t really with a number defining my skill in particular, but becoming a common way for people to say “I’m better than this player” I’m worried that an elo system could turn certain games into toxic measuring competitions, which could impact the cubecraft community as a whole.
You've got some good points here. In games where camping is possible, I think how many kills someone gets would be a major factor in choosing how much elo is given to each player. In competitive chess tournaments, for example, each player is given a performance rating, and that is compared to their previous elo to determine their new elo.

And regarding the issue of comparison, this would not be possible if elo stats are private (as in each player can only see their own elo). It's just a way of comparing themselves to the average opponent. Bad teammates can also contribute to the system having mercy, as their elo ratings will also be low and so it can be expected that it will be harder for the good players to win. Another option would be to simply not count team games toward elo statistics.

To everyone who is complaining about an elo system making the games too competitive, and making a casual gamemode as an option for players to play unrated games would make matchmaking too slow, it would not be impossible to put casual players and competitive players in the same lobby. It's just that the elo distribution will only affect players who are playing the rated mode. For example, in my Skywars example from the original post, if only 2nd, 4th. and 7th are playing for elo, 2nd place could go to 1006, 4th is unaffected, and 7th goes to 994, while the rest of the players are unaffected because they did not want to risk losing anything. That obviously assumes that nobody survived as long as they did due to camping. If 2nd place camped the whole game, 4th would likely take a little bit of elo from the other players, as it would be detected that 2nd place got no kills, looted minimal chests, and was just generally passive the whole game.
 
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