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nairraider

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Aug 17, 2022
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TL;DR is at the bottom of the post
Hey everyone,
Recently while playing Eggwars I've encountered more and more players using bows. It's become increasingly more annoying to deal with these players quickly as I try to grind out wins for a leaderboard spot and when I looked at the issue more I realized why. Bows aren't balanced. This is a 2 part post. The first will be talking about the bows themselves and the second will be talking about arrows. Once you've read the post I would love to hear your thoughts so please leave them below. If you find this post helpful or you agree with it please let me know by liking the post.


Section One: Price
The prices for a bow are as follows.
(Normal) Regular Bow: 8 Diamonds (Overpowered) Power 3: 12 Diamonds
(Normal) Power 1 Bow: 15 Diamonds (Overpowered) Power 5 Bow: 25 Diamonds
(Normal) Punch 1 Bow: 25 Diamonds (Overpowered) Punch 1 Bow: 25 Diamonds
There are two main issues with these prices
. The first issue is that the bows all cost diamonds, this means that if someone else has a bow and you haven't been to middle, you can't acquire a bow to fight back. The reason this is a problem is because bows have the power to knock someone off if they try to leave an island. A player can keep you stuck on your island with no hope for escape while they slowly drain your health with arrows. This leads us to the second problem, the bows are fairly cheap diamond wise. This means that if someone makes it to middle, they only need to stay there for about 20 seconds before they have enough diamonds to buy the best bow there is. That means that they can then go rush all the other players with their bow and stop them from making it off of their island. Once they have the bow you can't make it to middle because they will just knock you off, and if you try to fight them they'll just stay at range with the bow and kill you. These two problems are just part of the main issue with bows. The second issue is the arrows.


Section Two: Arrows
The prices for arrows are as follows.
(Normal) 5 Regular Arrows: 2 Gold (Overpowered) 5 Regular Arrows: 2 Gold
(Normal) 1 Slowness Arrow: 2 Gold (Overpowered) 1 Slowness Arrow: 1 Gold
(Normal) 1 Weakness Arrow: 6 Gold (Overpowered) 1 Weakness Arrow: 4 Gold

Personally, I have no issue with the price of regular arrows. The issue of people having too much power with regular arrows is solved by nerfing the bows. However, the issue I have here is the price of slowness arrows. Slowness arrow are remarkably cheap in both Normal and Overpowered with not even 3 gold per arrow. The reason this is such a big issue is because
slowness arrows can change the outcome of a fight. In Minecraft, the majority of fights are won by knocking the other party into the void and avoiding being knocked into the void yourself. This is done by maneuvering yourself away from the edge and attempting to combo the other party by strafing away from their attacks. When you're hit by a slowness arrow 3 horrible things happen, your FOV is lowered, you lose the ability to strafe away from the opponents hits, and most importantly, you lose the ability to maneuver away from the edge. This usually ends with you being knocked off the map and the opponent barely being hit because they still had the ability to sprint circles around you. The price of the arrows combined with the fact that the slowness from the arrows lasts a full 10 seconds means that for every 10 seconds they spend on a level 1 gold generator, they can slow you for 4 times as long, easily changing the outcome of any fight they get in to a victory. Now that we know the problem. Lets move on to the solution.

Section Three: The Solution
So far, we've identified a couple of problems. The fact that the bows cost diamonds and are easy for one person to monopolize, and the fact that slowness arrows can change the course of any fight for a very cheap gold cost. Lets start with how we can fix the issue of bow price, for this there is a pretty simple solution, increase the price. Some people would say lower the price so everyone has access, however, the issue with that then becomes everyone is stuck on their islands because everyone else has bows. If the diamond price is increased it will be much more difficult for someone to rush a bow without already having better gear than the other player, this will stop early game bow control and allow for more combat encounters in middle and more counterplay for if someone attempts to go for a bow. Moving on to the problem of arrows. The main issue with slowness arrows is the fact that they make it almost impossible to win a fight because they last for a full 10 seconds. On top of that they are quite cheap to get with barely and gold that has to be spent to acquire some. The solution to this problem is a two part solution. Simply raise the price, and lower the effect. If the price of slowness arrows was increased to the same price of weakness arrows they would be more difficult to acquire and people wouldn't carry around stack of them, making pvp more fair. If you add on to this by decreasing the slowness time to only 2.5 seconds, slowness arrows would have to be used much more tactically and be more skill based rather than just spam based. Personally I think if these solutions were implemented the game would be much more fun for everyone while still keeping bows in play. All these solutions would do is make the game slightly more balanced if one person acquires a bow and the other doesn't.

This is entirely my opinion and I'm sure you all have great ideas that I haven't thought of and suggestions to help fine tune the balance changes. Let me know your ideas and suggestions by replying to this and I'd be happy to talk over the pros and cons with you. :)


TL;DR Increase bow price to prevent early bow rushes, also increase slowness arrow prices and decrease the effect of slowness arrows to make combat more fair after being hit by a slowness arrow.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Oct 28, 2021
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Bro is speaking true facts even in some maps we don't even need to wait for 20 seconds we can get 25 diamonds in 10-13 seconds, I thought only I feel the same but there are ppl who agree with me so that's good.I agree with everything you say 👍🤟
 

Iridinox

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2022
292
673
99
Stardew Valley
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TL;DR is at the bottom of the post
Hey everyone,
Recently while playing Eggwars I've encountered more and more players using bows. It's become increasingly more annoying to deal with these players quickly as I try to grind out wins for a leaderboard spot and when I looked at the issue more I realized why. Bows aren't balanced. This is a 2 part post. The first will be talking about the bows themselves and the second will be talking about arrows. Once you've read the post I would love to hear your thoughts so please leave them below. If you find this post helpful or you agree with it please let me know by liking the post.


Section One: Price

The prices for a bow are as follows.
(Normal) Regular Bow: 8 Diamonds (Overpowered) Power 3: 12 Diamonds
(Normal) Power 1 Bow: 15 Diamonds (Overpowered) Power 5 Bow: 25 Diamonds
(Normal) Punch 1 Bow: 25 Diamonds (Overpowered) Punch 1 Bow: 25 Diamonds
There are two main issues with these prices
. The first issue is that the bows all cost diamonds, this means that if someone else has a bow and you haven't been to middle, you can't acquire a bow to fight back. The reason this is a problem is because bows have the power to knock someone off if they try to leave an island. A player can keep you stuck on your island with no hope for escape while they slowly drain your health with arrows. This leads us to the second problem, the bows are fairly cheap diamond wise. This means that if someone makes it to middle, they only need to stay there for about 20 seconds before they have enough diamonds to buy the best bow there is. That means that they can then go rush all the other players with their bow and stop them from making it off of their island. Once they have the bow you can't make it to middle because they will just knock you off, and if you try to fight them they'll just stay at range with the bow and kill you. These two problems are just part of the main issue with bows. The second issue is the arrows.


Section Two: Arrows
The prices for arrows are as follows.
(Normal) 5 Regular Arrows: 2 Gold (Overpowered) 5 Regular Arrows: 2 Gold
(Normal) 1 Slowness Arrow: 2 Gold (Overpowered) 1 Slowness Arrow: 1 Gold
(Normal) 1 Weakness Arrow: 6 Gold (Overpowered) 1 Weakness Arrow: 4 Gold

Personally, I have no issue with the price of regular arrows. The issue of people having too much power with regular arrows is solved by nerfing the bows. However, the issue I have here is the price of slowness arrows. Slowness arrow are remarkably cheap in both Normal and Overpowered with not even 3 gold per arrow. The reason this is such a big issue is because slowness arrows can change the outcome of a fight. In Minecraft, the majority of fights are won by knocking the other party into the void and avoiding being knocked into the void yourself. This is done by maneuvering yourself away from the edge and attempting to combo the other party by strafing away from their attacks. When you're hit by a slowness arrow 3 horrible things happen, your FOV is lowered, you lose the ability to strafe away from the opponents hits, and most importantly, you lose the ability to maneuver away from the edge. This usually ends with you being knocked off the map and the opponent barely being hit because they still had the ability to sprint circles around you. The price of the arrows combined with the fact that the slowness from the arrows lasts a full 10 seconds means that for every 10 seconds they spend on a level 1 gold generator, they can slow you for 4 times as long, easily changing the outcome of any fight they get in to a victory. Now that we know the problem. Lets move on to the solution.

Section Three: The Solution
So far, we've identified a couple of problems. The fact that the bows cost diamonds and are easy for one person to monopolize, and the fact that slowness arrows can change the course of any fight for a very cheap gold cost. Lets start with how we can fix the issue of bow price, for this there is a pretty simple solution, increase the price. Some people would say lower the price so everyone has access, however, the issue with that then becomes everyone is stuck on their islands because everyone else has bows. If the diamond price is increased it will be much more difficult for someone to rush a bow without already having better gear than the other player, this will stop early game bow control and allow for more combat encounters in middle and more counterplay for if someone attempts to go for a bow. Moving on to the problem of arrows. The main issue with slowness arrows is the fact that they make it almost impossible to win a fight because they last for a full 10 seconds. On top of that they are quite cheap to get with barely and gold that has to be spent to acquire some. The solution to this problem is a two part solution. Simply raise the price, and lower the effect. If the price of slowness arrows was increased to the same price of weakness arrows they would be more difficult to acquire and people wouldn't carry around stack of them, making pvp more fair. If you add on to this by decreasing the slowness time to only 2.5 seconds, slowness arrows would have to be used much more tactically and be more skill based rather than just spam based. Personally I think if these solutions were implemented the game would be much more fun for everyone while still keeping bows in play. All these solutions would do is make the game slightly more balanced if one person acquires a bow and the other doesn't.

This is entirely my opinion and I'm sure you all have great ideas that I haven't thought of and suggestions to help fine tune the balance changes. Let me know your ideas and suggestions by replying to this and I'd be happy to talk over the pros and cons with you. :)


TL;DR Increase bow price to prevent early bow rushes, also increase slowness arrow prices and decrease the effect of slowness arrows to make combat more fair after being hit by a slowness arrow.
As far as increasing the bow price, I actually think a better solution might be to reduce the level of diamond generators in the middle. There’s no clear reason why there are quads maps giving a whole team 6 diamonds for going to middle, and then a solos map prepared to give the player 24 diamonds as soon as they enter middle. This means it’s possible on some maps to get full iron, a diamond sword, and a weak bow after about 45 seconds of camping middle, which I would consider unbalanced.

Slowness arrows are ridiculously annoying, people will spam them on you until they effectively freeze you and you can’t fight back. From what you wrote it sounds like you fought the same guy I did. (I changed my suggestion to match your duration idea a bit.)

BTW, you might want to make the text color more dark mode friendly.
 

josepadgui

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2021
846
1,082
129
18
Cordoba, Spain
Pronouns
He/Him
TL;DR is at the bottom of the post
Hey everyone,
Recently while playing Eggwars I've encountered more and more players using bows. It's become increasingly more annoying to deal with these players quickly as I try to grind out wins for a leaderboard spot and when I looked at the issue more I realized why. Bows aren't balanced. This is a 2 part post. The first will be talking about the bows themselves and the second will be talking about arrows. Once you've read the post I would love to hear your thoughts so please leave them below. If you find this post helpful or you agree with it please let me know by liking the post.


Section One: Price
The prices for a bow are as follows.
(Normal) Regular Bow: 8 Diamonds (Overpowered) Power 3: 12 Diamonds
(Normal) Power 1 Bow: 15 Diamonds (Overpowered) Power 5 Bow: 25 Diamonds
(Normal) Punch 1 Bow: 25 Diamonds (Overpowered) Punch 1 Bow: 25 Diamonds
There are two main issues with these prices
. The first issue is that the bows all cost diamonds, this means that if someone else has a bow and you haven't been to middle, you can't acquire a bow to fight back. The reason this is a problem is because bows have the power to knock someone off if they try to leave an island. A player can keep you stuck on your island with no hope for escape while they slowly drain your health with arrows. This leads us to the second problem, the bows are fairly cheap diamond wise. This means that if someone makes it to middle, they only need to stay there for about 20 seconds before they have enough diamonds to buy the best bow there is. That means that they can then go rush all the other players with their bow and stop them from making it off of their island. Once they have the bow you can't make it to middle because they will just knock you off, and if you try to fight them they'll just stay at range with the bow and kill you. These two problems are just part of the main issue with bows. The second issue is the arrows.


Section Two: Arrows
The prices for arrows are as follows.
(Normal) 5 Regular Arrows: 2 Gold (Overpowered) 5 Regular Arrows: 2 Gold
(Normal) 1 Slowness Arrow: 2 Gold (Overpowered) 1 Slowness Arrow: 1 Gold
(Normal) 1 Weakness Arrow: 6 Gold (Overpowered) 1 Weakness Arrow: 4 Gold

Personally, I have no issue with the price of regular arrows. The issue of people having too much power with regular arrows is solved by nerfing the bows. However, the issue I have here is the price of slowness arrows. Slowness arrow are remarkably cheap in both Normal and Overpowered with not even 3 gold per arrow. The reason this is such a big issue is because
slowness arrows can change the outcome of a fight. In Minecraft, the majority of fights are won by knocking the other party into the void and avoiding being knocked into the void yourself. This is done by maneuvering yourself away from the edge and attempting to combo the other party by strafing away from their attacks. When you're hit by a slowness arrow 3 horrible things happen, your FOV is lowered, you lose the ability to strafe away from the opponents hits, and most importantly, you lose the ability to maneuver away from the edge. This usually ends with you being knocked off the map and the opponent barely being hit because they still had the ability to sprint circles around you. The price of the arrows combined with the fact that the slowness from the arrows lasts a full 10 seconds means that for every 10 seconds they spend on a level 1 gold generator, they can slow you for 4 times as long, easily changing the outcome of any fight they get in to a victory. Now that we know the problem. Lets move on to the solution.

Section Three: The Solution
So far, we've identified a couple of problems. The fact that the bows cost diamonds and are easy for one person to monopolize, and the fact that slowness arrows can change the course of any fight for a very cheap gold cost. Lets start with how we can fix the issue of bow price, for this there is a pretty simple solution, increase the price. Some people would say lower the price so everyone has access, however, the issue with that then becomes everyone is stuck on their islands because everyone else has bows. If the diamond price is increased it will be much more difficult for someone to rush a bow without already having better gear than the other player, this will stop early game bow control and allow for more combat encounters in middle and more counterplay for if someone attempts to go for a bow. Moving on to the problem of arrows. The main issue with slowness arrows is the fact that they make it almost impossible to win a fight because they last for a full 10 seconds. On top of that they are quite cheap to get with barely and gold that has to be spent to acquire some. The solution to this problem is a two part solution. Simply raise the price, and lower the effect. If the price of slowness arrows was increased to the same price of weakness arrows they would be more difficult to acquire and people wouldn't carry around stack of them, making pvp more fair. If you add on to this by decreasing the slowness time to only 2.5 seconds, slowness arrows would have to be used much more tactically and be more skill based rather than just spam based. Personally I think if these solutions were implemented the game would be much more fun for everyone while still keeping bows in play. All these solutions would do is make the game slightly more balanced if one person acquires a bow and the other doesn't.

This is entirely my opinion and I'm sure you all have great ideas that I haven't thought of and suggestions to help fine tune the balance changes. Let me know your ideas and suggestions by replying to this and I'd be happy to talk over the pros and cons with you. :)


TL;DR Increase bow price to prevent early bow rushes, also increase slowness arrow prices and decrease the effect of slowness arrows to make combat more fair after being hit by a slowness arrow.
I agree with making slowness arrows more expensive. But I have my doubts about making bows more expensive, they could probably be more expensive in normal mode, but in overpowered prices for bows should remain as they are now under my point of view.
 

nairraider

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I agree with making slowness arrows more expensive. But I have my doubts about making bows more expensive, they could probably be more expensive in normal mode, but in overpowered prices for bows should remain as they are now under my point of view.
Fair point, the overpowered price of 25 diamonds is fairly high, the reason I still think it should be changed however is because if someone were to rush middle, each diamond gen would have at least 7 diamonds so they would already be 2/3 of the way to 25 diamonds when they get there, all they have to do is sit at the gens for another few seconds and they have 25. All that without even considering the fact that a power 3 bow is only 12 and that's the starting amount of diamonds at the generator.
 

nairraider

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As far as increasing the bow price, I actually think a better solution might be to reduce the level of diamond generators in the middle. There’s no clear reason why there are quads maps giving a whole team 6 diamonds for going to middle, and then a solos map prepared to give the player 24 diamonds as soon as they enter middle. This means it’s possible on some maps to get full iron, a diamond sword, and a weak bow after about 45 seconds of camping middle, which I would consider unbalanced.

Slowness arrows are ridiculously annoying, people will spam them on you until they effectively freeze you and you can’t fight back. From what you wrote it sounds like you fought the same guy I did. (I changed my suggestion to match your duration idea a bit.)

BTW, you might want to make the text color more dark mode friendly.
This is a really great idea, while writing this post I mainly thought about the bow and arrow prices without thinking outside the box and considering diamond generator speed. If the speed was lowered it would make the gameplay much more balanced and fair and people would be on even playing ground for the start of the game. I'll probably check into the numbers a bit more but slowing down the diamond generators is a great idea.
 
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josepadgui

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Mar 26, 2021
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Fair point, the overpowered price of 25 diamonds is fairly high, the reason I still think it should be changed however is because if someone were to rush middle, each diamond gen would have at least 7 diamonds so they would already be 2/3 of the way to 25 diamonds when they get there, all they have to do is sit at the gens for another few seconds and they have 25. All that without even considering the fact that a power 3 bow is only 12 and that's the starting amount of diamonds at the generator.
The first diamonds are usually spent on armour and swords or axes. However, I get your point.
 

josepadgui

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True, accounting for that fact it would probably take someone about 40 seconds for full iron, a diamond sword, and a bow.
Enough for other teams to arrive and start a fight. I don't think it's necessary to increase the price, at least in the overpowered mode. However, I agree with making slowness arrows more expensive as they are really annoying and really mess up fights.
 

nairraider

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Enough for other teams to arrive and start a fight. I don't think it's necessary to increase the price, at least in the overpowered mode. However, I agree with making slowness arrows more expensive as they are really annoying and really mess up fights.
Makes sense. I might edit the post with the new info on diamond gen time.
 
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nairraider

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Bro is speaking true facts even in some maps we don't even need to wait for 20 seconds we can get 25 diamonds in 10-13 seconds, I thought only I feel the same but there are ppl who agree with me so that's good.I agree with everything you say 👍🤟
Glad to hear you agree :) Thanks for the response and the like
 

nairraider

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As far as increasing the bow price, I actually think a better solution might be to reduce the level of diamond generators in the middle. There’s no clear reason why there are quads maps giving a whole team 6 diamonds for going to middle, and then a solos map prepared to give the player 24 diamonds as soon as they enter middle. This means it’s possible on some maps to get full iron, a diamond sword, and a weak bow after about 45 seconds of camping middle, which I would consider unbalanced.

Slowness arrows are ridiculously annoying, people will spam them on you until they effectively freeze you and you can’t fight back. From what you wrote it sounds like you fought the same guy I did. (I changed my suggestion to match your duration idea a bit.)

BTW, you might want to make the text color more dark mode friendly.
I just learned that duos maps actually give more diamonds than solo maps whereas quad maps give so much less. I personally think this needs to be entirely swapped. I believe that quad maps should get a lot more diamonds to spread amongst the entire team. However, a duo that has full iron and bows is very very hard to counter and as such I think they should have the slowest generation of them all. A solo with iron and a bow is a fair bit easier to combo off, it's still a massive pain but much less of one. I think quad maps should have the fastest diamond generation of all of them, solo maps should be the 2nd fastest, and duos should be the slowest.
 
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