Minecraft PC IP: play.cubecraft.net

AmbroseWaketon

Novice Member
Sep 28, 2017
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PREFACE:
Recently, I've been examining the way leaderboards are structured compared to other leaderboard systems. CubeCraft leaderboards are, frankly, misleading and unrepresentative of the skill of players. Ranking on leaderboards is determined solely by number of matches won, which leads to a bias towards players who have more time to grind lots of matches and attempt to play short matches against unskilled players rather than encouraging skillful, high-level play in matches to avoid stat erosion.

WHO ARE YOU:
Now, you may be asking yourself, "Who are you to be making these statements?" Currently, I have
* Top 50 in the current solo leaderboards (#43 as of time of writing)
* a 38% win ratio (statistical average is somewhere between 8-12% for solo games depending on map size)
* over 300 hours clocked in Eggwars alone

WHAT IS BROKEN:
As stated, leaderboards currently determine rankings based on matches won. This is problematic because it encourages players to engage in low-quality play, such as:
* Leaving matches when high-level players join
* Leaving matches as soon as their egg breaks, rather than completing the match
* Camping (which despite being against server rules, occurs quite frequently)
* NOTE: I'm not referring to defending an egg. That's fine and should happen. I'm talking about players who ignore their egg and instead attempt to, for example, hide underneath the map in a normally unreachable location so that players are forced to spend obscene amounts of time to safely get to them in order to finish a match.

Additionally, it encourages tactics that, while perfectly valid, are generally very boring or very frustrating to other players, such as:
* Suicide jumping - jumping off a bridge without an egg in order to hit a player (who may or may not have an egg) off, just so they lose gear or lose the match. This is usually a spite technique.
* Bum-rushing - Rushing a player's egg knowing you'll lose your own in the process, just for spite. Often, this will be accompanied by a suicide jump, or sometimes the player will simply disconnect after spiting the neighbor he just bum-rushed. Again, this is usually a spite technique.
* Obsidian Hell - That disgusting lump of obsidian, probably 6 blocks deep or more, that the player next to you just built. Which would be fine, except he hasn't purchased anything except obsidian the entire game. No armor, no sword, no bow...nothing except obsidian. This is just...boring to deal with. There's no challenge in digging through 6 layers of obsidian with some rando punching you every few minutes and then you insta-killing him.
* Bunkering - Refusing to leave your base for any reason. Alternatively, rushing mid as soon as the game starts, then rushing back and breaking your bridge behind you. This is valid if your entire goal is just to survive until the end of the game, but that's not the point... or is it?

Finally, and most importantly, it rewards players with more free time over other players who can't spend all day playing.
Here's an example:
* Player A and Player B are tied for the same spot on the leaderboards.
* Player A plays 5 games, and wins 4 of them. His/her win ratio is 80%.
* Player B plays 25 games, and wins 5 of them. His/her win ratio is 20%.
Because of how the leaderboards currently work, Player B will still overtake Player A for the leaderboard position, despite losing more games (and therefore probably playing worse), simply because he/she had more time to spend playing lots of matches.

WHAT NEEDS CHANGED:
In order to fix the above issues, there are two changes that need to be made.
1. Games display a "mini-leaderboard" at the end of matches that shows not just who won, but who had the most kills/egg kills/final kills. There are other servers which use this model (*cough*rhymes with Lie-pickle*cough*) and it seems to work quite well. Players who play well and lose are still recognized as being "skilled players" at the end of the match, while winning is obviously still the primary goal.

2. Leaderboards should be split into categories and calculated off of unbiased numbers. For example, the best numbers for determining player skill would be:
* Win/Loss Ratio(W/LR)
* Kill/Death Ratio (K/DR) The problem with raw K/DR is that if a player decides to "kill-farm", it can ruin another player's stats while boosting their own. FK/FDR is a much fairer stat.
* Final Kills/Final Deaths Ratio (FK/FDR)
* Final Kills per Game
* Eggs Broken Per Game

CONCLUSION:
With these changes in place, players will be able to compete fairly for the respect of their peers without having to grind through dozens of matches each day to maintain their leaderboard positions.

---

Thank you to the following people for helping with this writeup:
* Eclipse13 for providing input,
* The CubeCraft staff, for developing an awesome game,
* All the top 25 players on the current leaderboard; you guys deserve your positions despite the skewed numbers. I've played most of you in regular matches and clearly the numbers don't always lie.
 

Andyyy

Forum Expert
Dec 7, 2016
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Blockwars
So someone wants to play Eggwars but they can't because none of their friends are online and they don't want to hurt their win rate. Imagine eggs broken a game: How will people manipulate that? They will have a party camping at mid or something along the lines preventing other teams from rushing each other while one player goes to each individual base, breaks the eggs and gets final kills. Final deaths is along the same lines. Teams will camp more. Then maps will few players will be actively avoided because they yield fewer stats per game.

Then you have to ask, what will the minimum sample size be allowed to be? 100 games, 1000? Otherwise you can have people on an alt that got 11 eggs in a game being first on the leaderboard with no way to beat it. These leaderboards based of just dividing like this just encourage devious methods and don't encourage people to actually paly the game more in the fear of ruining their stats.

An ELO system work much better but cube has no implemented that after countless requests. There's a good reason that no server works off this system, and that is because it does not encourage healthy play, or for that matter, playing at all.
 
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AmbroseWaketon

Novice Member
Sep 28, 2017
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So someone wants to play Eggwars but they can't because none of their friends are online and they don't want to hurt their win rate.
If a player can only win because of their friends assisting them, they themselves are not skilled, they just have a team that carries them. For example, teams can easily "boost" a player by trapping players and weakening them and then allowing the boosted player to finish the kill. Leaderboards are supposed to reflect individual skill.

Imagine eggs broken a game: How will people manipulate that? They will have a party camping at mid or something along the lines preventing other teams from rushing each other while one player goes to each individual base, breaks the eggs and gets final kills.
This already exists, and there are numerous counters to this. Counter-camping (preventing the team from leaving mid), bridging to the team's island, saving for pearls, bridge fighting...the list goes on and on.

Additionally, that assumes that one team can handle multiple teams pushing to mid at the same time, which is extremely unlikely.

Even more additionally, that assumes that one person from the team can attack a team's egg successfully without dying. At minimum, that's a 1v1, more if you're playing teams instead of solos.

Final deaths is along the same lines. Teams will camp more.
Why would teams camp more? Camping means you get no kills, and then die, which lowers your final KDR.

Then maps will few players will be actively avoided because they yield fewer stats per game.
Currently players avoid maps with more players because they take longer. All maps would be more evenly balanced with a fKDR system.

Then you have to ask, what will the minimum sample size be allowed to be? 100 games, 1000? Otherwise you can have people on an alt that got 11 eggs in a game being first on the leaderboard with no way to beat it.
Minimum sample size would probably be based on playtime rather than stats, but having a minimum of 200 games would give a large enough polling pool to get an accurate representation.

These leaderboards based of just dividing like this just encourage devious methods and don't encourage people to actually paly the game more in the fear of ruining their stats.
I've already covered how that's not true with the examples you've already given, but if you have more specific examples, I'm open to hearing them.

An ELO system work much better but cube has no implemented that after countless requests. There's a good reason that no server works off this system, and that is because it does not encourage healthy play, or for that matter, playing at all.
An ELO system would work nicely, but is expensive and complicated to implement. Also, ELO is based on wins and losses, it just attaches a numeric value to it based on the relative skill of your opponents. The problem with a system like that is when you have multiple opponents, the math gets a bit complicated. For example, do you change ELO based on who you died to, or who killed your egg, or everyone who was in the match, or everyone who was alive when you died, or...you get the point. Too many variables to account for to use ELO.

Alternatively, the stat tracking method allows players to sort based on whichever stat is most important to them. In essence, you can have multiple leaderboards by sorting by different stats, so you can have a #1 player by final kills, and a #1 player by egg breaks, and a #1 player by ... well, you get the point.
 

Megaaa

Forum Veteran
Mar 4, 2015
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* All the top 25 players on the current leaderboard; you guys deserve your positions despite the skewed numbers. I've played most of you in regular matches and clearly the numbers don't always lie.
Hey that's me! :)

Back on topic: No matter what you change or anything, you still have people that grind their way onto the leaderboards. Also it's your choice to sit all day behind your laptop of desktop to grind it. Some day you will stand somewhere above on the leaderboards.
 

Andyyy

Forum Expert
Dec 7, 2016
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If a player can only win because of their friends assisting them, they themselves are not skilled, they just have a team that carries them. For example, teams can easily "boost" a player by trapping players and weakening them and then allowing the boosted player to finish the kill. Leaderboards are supposed to reflect individual skill.
Yes the leaderboard is meant to be about player skill but in real life, it's about having the most and best players in your party. People don't care if they are being carried if they win.
This already exists, and there are numerous counters to this. Counter-camping (preventing the team from leaving mid), bridging to the team's island, saving for pearls, bridge fighting...the list goes on and on.

Additionally, that assumes that one team can handle multiple teams pushing to mid at the same time, which is extremely unlikely.

Even more additionally, that assumes that one person from the team can attack a team's egg successfully without dying. At minimum, that's a 1v1, more if you're playing teams instead of solos.
Imagine these pro parties leaving any games with any competent players in. They can easily dominate low level players. Imagine these strong teams camping instead of the normal not so good players doing it. If they lose their egg, they will simply wait out until the other team has to leave or even the extremes of ddosing.

Why would teams camp more? Camping means you get no kills, and then die, which lowers your final KDR.
You won't get final kills but you avoid getting final deaths by camping to the extreme and waiting out other players.

Minimum sample size would probably be based on playtime rather than stats, but having a minimum of 200 games would give a large enough polling pool to get an accurate representation.
If it's playing 200 games, that can be done in 2/3 days. Basing it off play time is even worse because players can wait, leaving one player alive on another team for a few hours to artificially increase the time. 200 games just means that if you play any more than that you are putting yourself at risk of decreasing your average. The leaderboard will be topped with alts around 200 wins with stats that are unmatchable by a legitimate player.

An ELO system would work nicely, but is expensive and complicated to implement. Also, ELO is based on wins and losses, it just attaches a numeric value to it based on the relative skill of your opponents. The problem with a system like that is when you have multiple opponents, the math gets a bit complicated. For example, do you change ELO based on who you died to, or who killed your egg, or everyone who was in the match, or everyone who was alive when you died, or...you get the point. Too many variables to account for to use ELO.

The ELO system is better because it allows recovery from a few bad games, just raw stats can mean one bad game will damage them forever. Obviously ELO would be difficult. The reason this system fundamentally fails is because playing in less than fun ways is encouraged. As of now, winning fast makes sense. There is some avoiding of other pro teams but going up against them wont risk ruined stats. The system encourages playing more and filling up games as that is exactly what cube wants. What cube doesn't want is farming on alts, extreme camping, people constantly games and even worse, imagine the toxicity. It's not people losing out on wins but people losing out their chance on the leaderboard. Toxicity will be 100s of times worse and for a server meant for casual play, this is ridiculous.
 

Odieuse

Well-Known Member
May 14, 2016
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Delft
the old leaderbord where a lot better but the cant get back in this lobby.
meby nice to add is somewhere on the map a leaderbord for player 1 till 5 with npc so they can do there and look if they really want
 

AmbroseWaketon

Novice Member
Sep 28, 2017
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Back on topic: No matter what you change or anything, you still have people that grind their way onto the leaderboards.

That's true, however, the difference is that grinding should increase your skill, which would then put you higher on the board because you worked hard to improve. Grinding should not be about how much you play, it should be about how well you play. If two players are equally skilled and one of them grinds, that's frustrating but fair. However a good player who isn't grinding shouldn't be passed by a bad player who is grinding (as per the example I gave).

As for Andyyy... honestly, most of your points aren't points at all, they're just differences of opinion or assumptions which can't be verified or falsified, so I'm not going to try to refute them. If you disagree, that's fine, but most of your assumptions are, IMO, just wrong. Could some of your hypothetical scenarios occur? Yes. Can you point to a single instance of them occurring on another server? Probably not; I certainly haven't seen any. If you can give some solid evidence, I'd be inclined to reconsider, but as is, I think my suggestion still stands as a better alternative to what currently exists, albeit not the "perfect" way.
 
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